#TeamNavratilova is gathering pace!

[SpeakUpXXWomen]

Firing Martina from Allies is working out to be an own goal as more people stand up and speak out on this.

twitter.com/hashtag/TeamNavratilova?src=hash

We know how twitter works in regards to women speaking out so perhaps this thread could be a place to gather excellent quotes and pictures for people to spread across other platforms and show that Martina's views are shared not by a trickle of support but a tidal wave.

I feel in need of a very nice #TeamNavratilova picture to put on my fbook, any social media gurus around to advise?

I wish someone would say it every time no woman is present.

It really should be the interviewer, or whoever is introducing the segment who should explain it .... that might make them realise the inequity. If they really do, for whatever reason, want an all-male discussion about an issue which impacts women's rights then they need to rationally justify it and publicise the balancing all-female discussion (which should be immediately before or after).

To take a concrete example:

It is widely acknowledged that Sarah Taylor of England is the best technical wicket-keeper of either sex in the world. She has played in mens county 2nd team and first team Australian mens grade cricket, the two highest forms of the game short of first-class.

However, she would never be good enough to play in the England men's team where she would be required to keep to 90mph bowling rather than 65mph.

I’m just hoping JK Rowling is seeing these women dipping their toes into the water and thinking seriously about following suit.

Writers have been untypically silent about this. Please see my post on the Jazz/Vagina thread.

Why has the Emma Freud tweet disappeared? Was the original link wrong?

Pam shriver speaking out now

I think Debbie Hayton is well aware of that, for one.

Does Debbie ask for instance, why the show they are on hasn't asked an actual woman onto the show?

Why has the Emma Freud tweet disappeared?

Cold feet?

At this point I feel like I'm explaining why the earth is round to flat earthers. It really is that ridiculous.

I know. But transideology trumps common sense, science, safeguarding etc. Because, you know, men and hurty feelz.

Emma Freud had a TRA pile-on. Most people (eg Robert Webb, Alison Moyet) that dip their toe in, end up deleting the tweet just to make it stop.

Doesn't mean they've changed their mind.

What worries me about the distinction that is being made between junior and senior sport. As in it is ok for trans girls to play with girls at junior and amateur levels, but not performance levels.

1. Places on all important talent pathways will be lost to girls. There is only room for, say, two 15 year old hockey goalkeepers on a county pathway, even a big county like Surrey. There may only be room for one distance butterfly swimmer of the same age. If boys are stronger and faster, and certainly in most clubs there will be several boys who can beat the best girl, it is very possible that talented girls, the best in their age group will lose out on pathway places. Failure to recruit on anything but performance would result in law suits, especially in sports with the potential for US University scholarships.

1. Increased risk of injury. My daughter played mixed adult hockey for a while aged 15, and I worried for her, though actually it was a casual game and the guys were very careful when coming up against the women - my daughter's main gripe was that she could not go to the pub afterwards. Injuries happen. Girls playing against bigger and stronger, but possibly less skilled players, will be at more risk. A lot of schools wont allow mixed hockey fixtures, even when they have girls and boys teams, presumably for that reason.

1. Girls may be put off playing sport. We already have a problem with girls participating. Girls seem to come out of primary schools with little familiarity, so club players dominate school teams and it is difficult for beginners to make headway. Then puberty and awkwardness. Having transgirls in the changing room and on the playing field wont help. Oddly girls then seem to gain interest and confidence aged about 16, and sixth forms who offer "new" sports like football can get a really good uptake. But these work because almost everyone is new so at the same level. Boys or transgirls, who have played since the age of five would again act as a disincentive to newbies.

My guess is that the distinction is more about money, TV Rights, and sponsorship. Otherwise it makes no sense. Keep sex based definitions at performance level but get rid of the pathway?

Of course, Emma Freud has links with both the BBC and Comic Relief. Someone probably had a word.

But no, of course women's concerns aren't being silenced...

I’m certain that the TRAs are going to turn this whole situation to their advantage and use it to support the pre-pubertal transitioning of children.

Ah. Definitely cold feet then.

Debbie has risked a lot standing up for women’s boundaries and speaking at events.

Comments on news threads unanimously #TeamNavratilova

twitter.com/TMZ_Sports/status/1098243558946099202

twitter.com/NBCOUT/status/1098296335932014598

The conversation is ongoing rapidly, this is good news, awareness and disbelief is seeping through the cracks. People are standing up for women.

twitter.com/bloominanna

Does Debbie ask for instance, why the show they are on hasn't asked an actual woman onto the show?

Did Debbie even question why they were asked, given that Debbie is not either female, or an athlete?

I’m certain that the TRAs are going to turn this whole situation to their advantage and use it to support the pre-pubertal transitioning of children.

There are many tra who will use any situation to encourage children to use puberty blockers.

The only people who stand to gain by denigrating Debbie Hayton or any TW questioning transideology are TRAs. The same people attacking Martina or in fact anyone who speaks against the removal of women's rights.

This thread is about WOMEN, notably women speaking up for women in sport. This thread is a celebration of the courage being shown by some of the greatest women athletes in the world. They may be stating the obvious but they are doing it for us because they have fought hard, earned their place and will be listened to. They are speaking up for women, educating the public on rights for women and girls so that we can all be heard.

#TeamNavratilova
#IStandWithMartina

I'm not denigrating Debbie, but I think it is a very fair question to ask why Debbie is being given access to platforms when no women are involved except the interviewer. Debbie speaks clearly, and that's fine and helpful in the big picture.

It's also part of the problem that Debbie gets to speak and someone like Nic Williams is silenced.

One can only imagine she has been subject to the same threats and abuse that people like Alison Moyet and Robert Webb recieve from the extreme end of the TAs.
RM likes to boast about the amount of abusive tweets they receive, however I am willing to bet that most of these are simply critisism, not abuse, especially from women. The actual abuse in this debate towards trans people always seems to come from men. Not the women/feminists the extreme TRAs seem to target.

Mumsnet occasional lurker and first time poster here. While I’m tickled pink to see the response Martina has been getting and the attention that it’s drawn (even Mr. Sylvester wondering where are the feminists),
I’m a bit worried that (maybe even only professional) women’s sports might become the “exception” to the transwomenarewomen rule. Long before this, I’ve come across men saying as much (seeing as some of them care about/understand sports more than women’s rights). I wonder if this might be India’s angle.

Conflating abuse, criticism and disagreement are endemic. I see it all the time on MN.

I think you're right cookie, which is where it gets very murky in other areas, eg safeguarding.

Yes, you could be right cookie. I have noticed on my fb that whilst other GC posts get barely a like, ones to do with this are getting far more.

Butvi have to hope that it will go the other way - that those who've thought TWAW will realize what nonsense that is.

Yes Cookieflavoredbiscuit. That is certainly in the back of my mind.

However, let's get the discussion up and running, and be able to talk freely about the distinctions between men and women.

We've already had the prison service now realising that mixed prisons are a bad idea, and why.

Now sport is on the cusp.

As ever, sunlight is by far the best tactic.

When people say deluded nonsense like women are just as strong as men, the public will realise that support for, say, mixed sex changing rooms, is only backed by these idiots.

Let's get all these people who say they can tell predators by looking into their souls, that throwing money at an 11-year-old boy in a gay club isn't exploitative, etc, out into the open.