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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Martina Navratilova removed from Athlete Ally Advisory board.

152 replies

Blueblueyellow · 19/02/2019 23:10

Taken from their website:
"Our mission is to end the rampant homophobia and transphobia in sport and to activate the athletic community to exercise their leadership to champion LGBTQ equality".
And surprise, Rachel Mckinnon is an ambassador.
www.athleteally.org/navratilovas-statements-transphobic-counter-to-our-work-vision/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
NotBadConsidering · 20/02/2019 11:17

Yes! That’s the one. The puppy one is on page 1. I searched “meme” but couldn’t remember that it had gender critical in the title. Thanks!

BiologyIsReal · 20/02/2019 11:22

It's such a nonsense that it falls under the category that a lie is halfway round the world before truth gets its boots on.
So it's all and only about testosterone is it? I take it then that they believe that once you lower testosterone, the transwoman shrinks a few inches, their hands and feet get a couple of sizes smaller, their arms and legs shorten so their stride and reach reduces, their lungs shrink and lose capacity, their hearts get smaller, their muscles atrophy etc.

You really do have to be exceptionally stupid to believe this crap - or delusional.

OvaHere · 20/02/2019 11:30

If this become accepted fact then I think it has very sinister and dangerous implications particularly in light of the recent cases where "consensual rough sex" has been used as a defence against charges of rape and murder. How could rough sex which results in death or serious injury not be consensual if the male accused of the crime did not have a physical advantage over the victim? She could have used her equal strength to stop what he was doing at anytime.

I talked about this in a thread a while ago, I think there is a real issue around how women are portrayed in film, tv and fiction.

We used to have 20th century portrayals where women were endless victims, crying and fainting, waiting for a hero to swoop in - which is an stereotypical and unhelpful narrative.

Now the pendulum has swung too far the other way and watching many shows (I previously cited The 100 as an example) you could be forgiven for thinking it's perfectly reasonable that a tiny 5ft2, skinny teen girl can take on a Dwayne Johnson lookalike in hand to hand combat and win.

I honestly think this is where some of the narrative about women training harder and overcoming weakness comes from. They see it all over media and fandoms and somehow internalise it as a truth.

It's a narrative I've noticed increasingly pushed outside of sci-fi (where a female character can be explained by mutant or super powers) and a lot of it is in the young adult genre that feature young teens/women who are not supernatural in any way but magically possess ridiculous strength and fighting ability.

2019StandingforWomen · 20/02/2019 11:50

twitter.com/LizzieSimmonds1/status/1098182893451526144

Lizzie Simmonds and Dame Kelly Holmes have joined in the debate

twitter.com/damekellyholmes/status/1098167185065820160

MillytantForceit · 20/02/2019 12:00

Kelly Holmes, former Army PT Instructor who is more aware than most of us of the differences in physique between men and women. As a lesbian in the armed forces in the 80s, she lived in constant fear of a 'conduct unbecoming' investigation that would have seen her thrown out with no pension and no references.

tobee · 20/02/2019 12:12

Surely, surely this will peak lots of people? Anyone would surely see this for what it is?

Bebstar123 · 20/02/2019 12:23

OvaHere

A sadly now defunct gender critical film blog I used to read raised this point a few years back, particularly with regards to a 'Buffy' style revision of historical (or fictional but supposedly historically authentic) female character's and how unwise it was to effectively paint over the limitations, both physical and social, women in these times would have faced.

OvaHere · 20/02/2019 12:38

Yes Bebstar I think it has been unwise and it's starting to be very clear why.

I don't want a return to the old tropes of hysterical, sobbing women but there has to be a happy medium somewhere that doesn't give the false impression that women can be just as physically strong as any man if only they try hard enough.

Vixxxy · 20/02/2019 12:42

There is no evidence at all that the average trans woman is any bigger, stronger, or faster than the average cisgender woman

Write that properly, going by biology.

There is no evidence at all that the average male is any bigger, stronger, or faster than the average female

Fucking insanity

I hope Martina does not care, and I hope this is widely publicised too. Peaking the nation with one statement...

2019StandingforWomen · 20/02/2019 12:43

Paula Radcliffe

@paulajradcliffe
Replying to @PetesyWalsh
Transgender is different and I understand Navratilova’s point. If you are born and grow up male you cannot be allowed to compete in female sports simply because you ‘identify’ as female. It makes a mockery of the definitions of male and female sports categories.

MillytantForceit · 20/02/2019 12:45

The average person has one breast and one testicle.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 20/02/2019 12:49

Just reading comments below the Facebook post of the biased BBC article and they are 99% supportive of Martina. It’s really heartening.

They always are. Everytime someone demands that women step aside, the comments are overwhelming in favour of women, yet councils, police, politicians and governing bodies don't hear.

It's testimony to how powerful tra are.

littlbrowndog · 20/02/2019 12:49

Wow it’s like the dam has burst in the sports world
They feel able to speak out now

OvaHere · 20/02/2019 12:58

I'm so happy these older sportswomen are speaking out. They must also know how silenced their younger contemporaries are for fear of losing sponsorship or being disqualified.

Blueblueyellow · 20/02/2019 13:00

littlbrowndog, Puuuulllll!!!

OP posts:
FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 20/02/2019 13:02

They feel able to speak out now

I said it when she first spoke up, but I can't express how full my heart is that the fracture in the wall of silence has been because of a woman of great personal integrity and achievement had the courage to take a stand.

Vixxxy · 20/02/2019 13:08

Wow it’s like the dam has burst in the sports world

Finally. I hope they are prepared for the wrath of TRAs though, it is some scary shit the first time it happens...I hope more and more feel able to speak up..seems Martina has given courage to others which is fantastic. Really hope she doesn't take it back thoughk, or its back to square one if they all apologize for caring about fairness in womens sport..

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 20/02/2019 13:26

There is no evidence at all that the average trans woman is any bigger, stronger, or faster than the average cisgender woman

I have emailed them to ask where their evidence and supporting data for this claim comes from. Fact free crap like this cannot be allowed to stand. They may ignore me but if lots of us do the same they cannot ignore us all.

HumberElla · 20/02/2019 13:37

Presumably the same argument might be that there is ‘no evidence’ that fish can breathe underwater better than humans can.
Because it’s blatently bloody obvious, it’s there for all to see! There isn’t a body of empirical research where hundreds of humans have been drowned in the process of proving they are not biologically able to breathe underwater.

BettyDuMonde · 20/02/2019 13:44

Finally. I hope they are prepared for the wrath of TRAs though, it is some scary shit the first time it happens...I hope more and more feel able to speak up..seems Martina has given courage to others which is fantastic

I’m currently armchair theorising that elite women athletes must be well-practised at resisting female socialisation?

The attributes that they had to cultivate (ambition, competitiveness, self-focus, prioritising one’s career at the expense of other stuff, physical prowess, even just getting sweaty in public while people take unflattering action pictures) are rarely considered to be derivable ‘feminine’ attributes.
Some of them will even have been deliberately ‘misgendered’, both privately and in the media and will have survived the ‘literal violence’ by giving zero fucks.

I think we might have found the exact group of women who are best equipped to defeat transideaology!

Vixxxy · 20/02/2019 13:47

I think we might have found the exact group of women who are best equipped to defeat transideaology!

I really hope so. And yes, you have a point.

They will already be used to abuse, but apparently, TRA abuse is like nothing every seen before. I think it was David Davis who said that he had never seen anything like it...and given his voting record I assume he comes in for criticism on a regular basis. Fucks sake, Milwall even cancelled due to the abuse.

Datun · 20/02/2019 13:53

What's going to be very interesting here is TRAs response to these top female athletes.

At the moment these women are being polite, sensitive and diplomatic.

I wonder what will happen when they find out that this is absolutely no defence to the threats they will get, nor the absolute load of delusional shite that accompanies them.

Most of the women here realise the general public simply don't know the extent of this. And many of them refuse to believe it at first. Their incredulity doesn't let them.

Let's see what happens. It certainly hardened Martina's stance. As it does most women.

Most women only go one way in this.

And it's all because of how they get treated for speaking.

Bring it on.

Datun · 20/02/2019 13:56

Oops sort of a cross post there!

There is something of the Zeitgeist about this. There are now enough women to support people like Kelly and Martina.

Critical mass has been reached, certainly on twitter.

User7777 · 20/02/2019 14:01

There is no evidence at all that the average trans woman is any bigger, stronger, or faster than the average cisgender woman

Or, alternatively...

There is no evidence at all that the average trans woman is the same size, strength and speed as the average cisgender woman.
Works both ways...

Italiangreyhound · 20/02/2019 14:33

2019StandingforWomen

Thabk you for posting this...

twitter.com/LizzieSimmonds1/status/1098182893451526144

Lizzie Simmonds and Dame Kelly Holmes have joined in the debate

twitter.com/damekellyholmes/status/1098167185065820160

It is so heartening!