Caster Semenya

[LilaJude]

Is anyone else outraged that sports bodies are suggesting forcing Caster Semenyer to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels?

Caster has a naturally occurring phenomenon which gives her more testosterone than the average woman, and this has been deemed a competitive advantage that needs to be medically regulated.

How is this fair? We don’t handicap other athletes for having longer legs or more muscle mass. The nature of sport is that people with exceptional bodies triumph.

It’s like these sports governing bodies are saying ‘testosterone is a man thing, women aren’t allowed it.’ But Caster does have it, naturally, and it’s just part of who she is.

I just think it’s outrageous to force a woman to medicate just because a naturally occurring condition means her body doesn’t fit with what is conventionally seen as feminine / female.

If Caster had won it would have created a precedent that naturally occurring testosterone levels in women’s sport aren’t an issue and it isn’t hard to see where that would have led.

And if testosterone was no longer something that should be tested in female competitors, it's hard not to see some countries going for all-out doping of their female athletes. One East German athlete ended up transitioning because of the effects of the doping which had helped her to win medals.

www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/heidi-krieger-the-price-of-victory-8595.html

Does anyone know if it's possible to tell whether or not testosterone levels are natural when someone undergoes testing?

But it’s not just about testosterone

See what bowl wrote on other thread

Testosterone levels aren’t the issue; they are an indicator of sex but they are not sex itself.

Testosterone levels are very much the issue, since a puberty fuelled by testosterone produces very different results in the human body than a puberty fuelled by oestrogen.

A puberty fuelled by testosterone leads to the development of a masculinised body in terms of skeleton development, muscle, tendon and ligament development, cardiovascular development and respiratory development.

Such development delivers massive athletic advantage over humans who have puberty fuelled by oestrogen.

*reductase

I’m not so confident...The CAS decision in semenya’s case still allows testosterone up to 5nmol/l. That’s way outside the normal female range. If I went to my docs and they found that level of testosterone they’d be looking for serious issues. It’s too high.

This quote is also worrying because it’s using testosterone, not sex, as a differentiator.

“Historically the reason why we have separate male and female categories is that otherwise females would never win any medals,” he said. “Testosterone is the most important factor in explaining the difference. We are talking about females competing with levels similar to males. Very often it is more than 20 or 25nmol/L. So it is very high.”

MEN and women don’t compete - the IAAF need to be really clear on that. It’s not one homogenous bunch of people who can magically flip between Male/female categories depending on their testosterone levels. Men and women have physiological differences and testosterone is a secondary effect of that - NOT the primary driver. A man who has gone through Male puberty has permanent advantages, and reducing his testosterone does not magically make him aligned physiologically with the female category. The IAAF need to be very clear about that. I fear that by using testosterone levels like this they open up men entering women’s sports.

I need to read the whole judgement

What bowlbabel wrote👆

I'm so frustrated by the awkward position I find myself in facing comments like, well Caster's a woman, so...

My choice appears to be to say, no, she's not a woman (don't want to say that exactly but there's actual biological truth to it), or yep, definitely a woman, possibly with testes and XY chromosomes etc.

This is where actual intersex conditions (not Turner's syndrome, or Klinefelters, or PCOS) are genuinely hard cases.

And the truth is that for these cases alone I think the honest truth is
-literally 'assigned' female at birth
-but NOT actually biologically female
-and should be afforded the respect of being treated socially and legally as female
-but NOT treated as biologically female either in sports or in medicine.

Does that mean she has a Y chromosome?

The evidence is not clear - but to have internal testes and such high levels of testosterone, and to physically resemble a male in every way, I guess she must have. Her whole physique and facial structure is male through & through.

And the truth is that for these cases alone I think the honest truth is
-literally 'assigned' female at birth
-but NOT actually biologically female
-and should be afforded the respect of being treated socially and legally as female
-but NOT treated as biologically female either in sports or in medicine.

I think it is definitely the case that she was assigned female at birth. The lack of obvious male genitalia being the deciding factor.

there's actual biological truth

That should read there may be actual biological truth

The two most likely diagnoses are either partial androgen insensitivity syndrome or 5 alpha ready tase deficiency.

So does that indicate a Y-chromosome? I thought the presence of a Y-chromosome was something that indicated you were explicitly male?

I've always felt a bit sorry for Caster, too. However, that video would indicate that Caster herself lives as a man. Is comfortable as a man. Is not conflicted.

So where is the she's a woman coming from? Is it her external genitalia?

I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just trying to grasp the issue.

Currently the IOC allow trans women to compete, without any surgery, if they get their testosterone levels below 10 nmol/l for at least 12 months prior to their first competition. For Caster Semenya they have now set a limit of 5 nmol/l. If they lower it to 5 across the board it will at least be a move in the right direction.

So where is the she's a woman coming from? Is it her external genitalia? I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just trying to grasp the issue.

It seems that she has no external male genitalia, and maybe some form of external female genitalia. That is why her mother talks about knowing she is a girl because she changed her nappy - and why she was declared female at birth.

It seems that she has no external male genitalia, and maybe some form of external female genitalia. That is why her mother talks about knowing she is a girl because she changed her nappy - and why she was declared female at birth.

But no internal female organs. No uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes. But internal male organs in the form of undescended testes.

I can understand her mother going on the visual. But what is the actual official designation?

So does that indicate a Y-chromosome? I thought the presence of a Y-chromosome was something that indicated you were explicitly male?

If it’s true that Semenya has internal testes then there must be a Y chromosome.

So where is the she's a woman coming from? Is it her external genitalia?

Yes, by all accounts it relies on the absence of a penis. Earlier reports suggest there are no primary or secondary female sex characteristics at all except what may appear to be a vulva.

There are also undescended testes which were discovered when puberty did not progress as expected for a female.

From 2009: www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/11/30/eitheror

I think the uncertainty doesn't help and I feel irritated with CS over that. I understand she doesn't want to be subjected to testing but fgs, the whole future of womens sport is being debated here. If she has internal Male organs and no female reproductive organs then surely shes a male?

The press release clarifies the situation:

The decision relates to 46XY athletes.

Caster is genetically, and hormonally, male.

I understand she doesn't want to be subjected to testing

All athletes are subjected to testing via WADA regulations. CS should not be treated any differently in that respect.

If CS is unhappy about today's decision perhaps CS should demand to compete in a third category so that medication to reduce testosterone levels is unnecessary.

The media release says this:

The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e. conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes. Accordingly, individuals with XX chromosomes are not subject to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf

Delighted with this ruling. I hope that it is the start of 5 being the maximum testosterone level for all female sport. The events should be being won by people without a Y chromosome, even if they were born not realising they had a Y chromosome. This is the only way for women's and girls sport to survive otherwise we will stop competing in and coaching in women's sport.

Sorry, didn't see that barracker had posted the same above!

To further clarify, there are no restrictions on XX females. This could only presumably have been a legal challenge from someone impacted by the restrictions. That is, an XY person.

There could be no challenge from an XX female with naturally somewhat higher testosterone (PCOS?) because they aren't restricted by the rules.

Oh poo. X posts.

Caster is genetically, and hormonally, male

Which should be the decider.

So my next question is, is there a DSD that means someone is genetically and hormonally female, but nonetheless, has a physical advantage over women without a DSD?

I'm trying to establish if the presence of Y-chromosome is a fair decider, or if there is more to it than that?

There doesn't appear to be more to it than that in the case of Caster, in my opinion.

*Testosterone levels are very much the issue, since a puberty fuelled by testosterone produces very different results in the human body than a puberty fuelled by oestrogen.

A puberty fuelled by testosterone leads to the development of a masculinised body in terms of skeleton development, muscle, tendon and ligament development, cardiovascular development and respiratory development.

Such development delivers massive athletic advantage over humans who have puberty fuelled by oestrogen.*

Right now with regards to trans people we're mostly looking at people who have gone through puberty and transitioned later. The debate is largely about whether testosterone reduction negates those puberty changes. What's going to happen when all those children who were put on puberty blockers at 11 and then given CSH to erroneously go through either a testosterone or oestrogen fuelled, puberty join the cohort?