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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lighthouse 'radical' bookshop Edinburgh makes a statement on 'no platform'

167 replies

Laterthanyouthink · 17/02/2019 09:38

www.lighthousebookshop.com/2019/02/16/to-platform-or-not-to-platform-where-we-stand.html

I cannot get my head around this at all, a bookshop should be the last place to find censorship

OP posts:
donquixotedelamancha · 18/02/2019 09:50

it furthers your agenda in respect of painting anyone vocally standing in support of trans rights as being unreasonable and oppressive.

I have vocally stood up for trans rights many times and will continue to do so. Not supporting a change in the current GRA is not bigotry.

I don't agree that preventing discussion furthers trans rights. I do think the way this bookshop describes itself and behaves is unreasonable, but no one has called it oppression.

littlbrowndog · 18/02/2019 09:55

But what rights don’t trans people have
Nobody here is suggesting that
This is about women and girls here
Sisters uncut demonstrated against women meeting
Women meeting to talk about women and girls rights

Juells · 18/02/2019 09:57

I do think the way this bookshop describes itself and behaves is unreasonable, but no one has called it oppression.

I'm just amazed that they're prepared to expose how deeply stupid they are :(

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/02/2019 09:59

Under your absurd interpretation, all of these examples would count as censorship.

All those examples are censorship, yes. Some are socially acceptable.
The difference being of course that the holocaust actually happened, whereas humans cannot change sex.

I do hope you’re not equating saying humans can’t change sex with either the holocaust or holocaust denial, by the way? That would be very grim indeed because hurt feelings are not remotely comparable to the industrial murder of millions.

donquixotedelamancha · 18/02/2019 10:02

I'm just amazed that they're prepared to expose how deeply stupid they are

I support their right to be narrow minded if they wish, what bemused me is the conflicting sentences within their statement. Own your authoritarianism.

morningtoncrescent62 · 18/02/2019 10:04

They’ve never been a particularly welcoming place. There are plenty of good bookshops in Edinburgh where one can poke around a real variety of books without being judged on how woke one is.

Their dog is nice, though.

Seriously, I think as a bookshop they have every right to decide who they will and who they won't give a platform to. They're not a public organisation so they can do whatever they believe to be in their commercial interests. That far, I agree with LilaJude.

However, their statement goes beyond simply clarifying their choices (if indeed they needed clarifying). From the statement:

"We do not believe in the zero-sum rhetoric that some of these oppressions must be resisted at the cost of others, or that any particular one is of primary importance."

What they're doing here is deliberately setting up a straw man argument and misrepresenting the position of GC feminists. None of us argue that women's sex-based rights should be of primary importance - we are (e.g.) asking that potential conflicts of rights associated with self-ID are properly identified, debated, and appropriate measures put in place to make sure women continue to be protected. Straw man arguments such as those put forward by Lighthouse add heat but no light, and ridicule and belittle the genuine concerns of many feminists.

"In our view, trans-exclusive rights campaigns, whether they call themselves feminist or use the term “gender-critical”, are reactionary rather than radical, and knowingly cause harm to women."

This is a vile accusation and without evidence. They're entitled to hold that view, but putting it in such a way is likely to suppress engagement with ideas and evidence which I would have thought was contrary to their aims as a radical bookshop.

"As such, people and organisations who share such views with the intention of spreading misinformation that harms trans and non-binary people have absolutely no place in the bookshop or at any of our events."

This has gone beyond no-platforming to 'not welcome here'. They don't define 'spreading misinformation' so presumably it applies to anyone having a conversation on their premises or at their events. I've shopped at Lighthouse and attended their events before - but I won't do so again. That's not just because I don't agree with their stance (I can take disagreement and I'm happy to engage with people I don't agree with) but because they've explicitly told me I have no place there unless I maintain silence on anything to do with sex and gender.

"Many of us have the privilege of not needing to check whether we are safe and included in radical and feminist spaces. This policy is intended as a statement of reassurance to those who unfortunately do."

Actually what you've done is what you said at the start is a bad thing. You've elevated one oppression above others. So maybe TRAs and their supporters feel 'safe and included' in your shop (and arguably did before) but a lot of GC feminists now won't. There are other, and better, ways to promote respectful dialogue. Still, your shop and your choice.

"If any customers have legitimate concerns about this policy, they are welcome to discuss them with us in a constructive fashion, but we will not give time to people who act in bad faith and from a position of prejudice."

Well I have concerns that I consider legitimate but you've been very explicit in your statement that you don't consider them legitimate so I don't think I'll bother. I'm very good at respectful dialogue to try to resolve things when there are disagreements, but I don't think you have the slightest interest in hearing anything that would trouble your world view. For reasons I don't understand, you've decided that large numbers of leftie feminists have suddenly turned into bigots. Until you begin to question the implausibility of such a thing, there's no point talking to you.

"It is not “shutting down the debate” if we refuse to discuss, for example, whether trans women are women; to hold such a debate would itself be immoral."

I don't agree that it would be immoral, but I do agree it would be pointless; at the moment there are two irreconcilable sides who would only shout at each other. Instead, how about holding a debate on how trans individuals should be accommodated in prisons? Or maybe invite someone to discuss the research on ROGD and its implications for how we educate and respond to young people? Or how we respect both the privacy and dignity of transwomen healthcare practitioners whilst retaining women's rights to female care? That might actually get us somewhere. But no, you prefer to paint GC feminists as the baddies so that you can claim the moral high ground. Well I think you might find it's not particularly well populated up there, but I suppose you already know that.

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 10:11

Of course they do. Nobody has said otherwise. That doesn't change the definition of censorship- they are censoring those views from being expressed on their premises. Indeed where they are talking about disposal of wrongthink books it's not called no platforming, it's just referred to by the general term (censorship).

No they aren’t. They aren’t saying that if you walk into their bookshop and say ‘I believe trans women are men’ you’ll be forcibly bundled out and banned. They’re saying they are choosing not to actively host people whose views they don’t agree with.

Why do you think they should have to spend their time and money furthering a view they don’t agree with?

Businesses do that all the time, but it's noteworthy in this case because:

1. Bookshops have a long tradition against censorship. You can buy everything from Mein Kamph to Das Kapital in most bookshops.

But most wont sell, for example, Little Black Sambo. Are you also furious about that? Is that censorship? You could buy that book from a specialist if you wanted to, but in your view if I can’t get it in my local bookshop because they are uncomfortable stocking and profiting from racist books, what they are doing is censorship. Is that right?

2. They explicitly claim to promote the exchange of ideas

3. They explicitly claim to be inclusive and feminist, yet they exclude Muslim feminists, gender critical feminists and anyone else who they don't consider a 'real' feminist.

As they are entitled to do, being a private company who can use their time and resources in whatever manner they see fit. You are welcome to disagree with the decisions they make, but to claim it is censorship for a company to choose what it will stand for is patently absurd.

If you were talking about banning discussion of ideas then those examples would be censorship. Two of them are very valid censorship

Who decides what is ‘valid’? Is it you? How did you get that job?

though equating objection to self ID with holocaust denial is stupid.

I didn’t equate them. I just listed different perspectives people might object to using their platform to further. That obviously doesn’t mean those perspectives have anything in common with each other.

A Labour CLP refusing to admit people who supported a policy that was 'Tory' would be rightly criticised.

Ah, but that’s not what I said, is it? I said a Labour CLP wouldn’t have to offer a platform to a Tory. Do you think that’s censorship?

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 10:13

I do hope you’re not equating saying humans can’t change sex with either the holocaust or holocaust denial, by the way? That would be very grim indeed because hurt feelings are not remotely comparable to the industrial murder of millions.

Nice strawman, but it’s pretty obvious that I haven’t done anythint of the kind. If you want to pretend otherwise because it’s an easier argument for you to win, that’s on you.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/02/2019 10:14

Ok. And can humans change sex?

Juells · 18/02/2019 10:19

Isn't it wonderful the way political parties and bookshops decide to announce who is and isn't welcome? I've never seen that happen before, and it seems that it's only being done now because the people being knuckle-rapped and excluded are women, and it's always safe to exclude women, there will be no backlash from woke beardies.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/02/2019 10:22

Isn't it wonderful the way political parties and bookshops decide to announce who is and isn't welcome?

It’s an unpleasant symptom of the current left. They have the stance that what they believe is the right thing just because they are left. There’s no critical thinking at all. It’s totalitarianism.

As a private business they can stock what they want and promote what they want. And anyone can point out their issues with that.

I’ve never met their dog - I wonder what it thinks about it?

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 10:26

@Juells ah, so you are interested!

Isn't it wonderful the way political parties and bookshops decide to announce who is and isn't welcome?

Literally something that has happened since the dawn of time, but good on you for realising.

Do you lot rage about venues which choose not to host Tommy Robinson? Just curious.

I am leaving for work now. I live in Edinburgh so I’m going to pop into Lighthouse on my way in and spend a nice chunk of my paycheck there. That’s something I wouldn’t have thought to do without this thread, so thank you for the inspiration Wink

MillytantForceit · 18/02/2019 10:26

Any retailer has the right to not stock any product it does not approve. You have no right to demand the vegan supermarket supplys you with black pudding, or that a Christian bookshop gets you a copy of Dawkins 'God Delusion.'

But you do have a reasonable expectation that each of these institutions will advertise their ideology prominently above the door to avoid any confusion and embarrasment.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/02/2019 10:27

Do you lot rage about venues which choose not to host Tommy Robinson? Just curious.

Are you now conflating saying humans can’t change sex with far right views?

Do you believe humans can change sex?

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/02/2019 10:30

If I go into a bookshop that proclaims itself feminist, then am told that any kind of feminism that centres women is wrong, and that I must centre men, and that any support for women’s same sex spaces is wrong, I’m going to be a bit displeased.

It’s a bit like popping into B and Q and being told that you’re racist for wanting to buy a spanner. You’d be a tad confused.

They can sell what they want. To label themselves a feminist bookshop while supporting an ideology that is scientifically incorrect and actively harmful to women is just woke virtue signalling. It’s hard of thinking. And that’s not what I look for in a bookshop

BlahXXBlah · 18/02/2019 11:07

you’ll be forcibly bundled out I think I missed the threat buried in the word salad.

Surely asked to leave would be more in line with the british approach, are we all out violence first now, like overwrought toddlers?

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/02/2019 11:33

You stand near the door and say, ‘you’ll have had your tea then?’

That’s aggression Edinburgh style...

youllhavehadyourtea · 18/02/2019 11:37

someone called?

User10fuckingmillion · 18/02/2019 11:41

I live near there and I’ve never even noticed the booksho!

Juells · 18/02/2019 14:19

youllhavehadyourtea

Grin rural Irish customs are the opposite. When you call into a house food and drink is pressed on you, and the polite thing is to keep refusing, until finally the host ignores all your claims that you 'couldn't touch a bite' and forces the food on you. I went into shock when I moved to Dublin at 18, called into an aunt, and my very first refusal was accepted!!! Unheard of bad manners. Mrs Doyle's "Go on go on go on" refers to that country practice.

joan45 · 18/02/2019 17:17

Wow.

joan45 · 18/02/2019 17:21

"(much of which was so hateful it was found to be in breach of Twitter rules)"

lolx100.

LilaJude · 18/02/2019 17:34

I live near there and I’ve never even noticed the booksho!

I think it used to be called World Books or something like that. I wrote my masters dissertation on feminism, fairytales and the postmodern body and it was an absolute treasure trove for that.

R0wantrees · 18/02/2019 18:31

Seems a very similar situation to 'The Second Shelf' bookshop in London.

MargueritaPink · 18/02/2019 18:48

I live in Edinburgh. I've never noticed it. Even if I hadn't seen this their website just screams this is not for you Marguerita.

I suppose it probably is just a sign of growing old but the sanctimonious left really are quite irritating.

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