Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

On the Hijab and human faces.

207 replies

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 14/02/2019 12:39

Way back when I wore headcoverings myself as a Christian woman, I took a keen interest in what was taught about the Hijab, and what women themselves had to say about it.

I recall being particularly impressed by something I saw from a number of women about it being 'liberating' because it creates a focus on the face, on the woman as a human, rather than a sex object.

I took that at face value for some time as a good thought, but over time, I've begun to feel very uneasy about it.

For a start, there is an implicit understanding that a woman who is not covering her hair is a sex object, not a human. It all leads in to this notion that if a woman does not cover herself then she is not as worthy of respect as those women who do.

Then there is the understandable desire to be seen as a human, rather than simply subject to the male gaze. I feel it myself when I'm not wearing make up and just want to get on with my day - a sort of wish to be invisible to leering glances.

But why is there this strange notion that only our faces are 'human'? My whole body is part of what makes me human, the same as a man. How come a Muslim man is able to walk around with hair uncovered and still be seen as a human, but a woman does not have that ability unless we can only see her face? This 'disembodying' is so harmful.

Anyway, just some rolled around thoughts I had this morning while reading some things about the objections to hijab. I'd be interested in a discussion about it.

OP posts:
Gronky · 17/02/2019 16:31

Do I have any theories? Religion is no doubt a factor.

I meant why, if there is no different in terms of oppression between 'Western and Muslim' men, would one group be more willing to admit to having those feelings than the other? This is predicated on the assumption that they are held by the same proportion of men in both groups, as per your assertion

How about you survey a load of hardline Christians and then make the same comparison.

The survey cited was carried out on a cross section of all British Muslims, not merely the hardliners.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 16:38

But you're comparing a religious group (Muslims) with the rest of the population, many of whom will not be religious at all.

All the Christian women who promised to obey their husbands before God must believe in it, surely, because why else say it?

Bicyclethief · 17/02/2019 16:46

I expect women wear face coverings for all sorts of reasons. Some are forced (either by convention or by law) with consequences being very bad for women who don't. For religious reasons (feel nearer to God) or political/social reasons to retain your culture and identity.

Whatever the reasons, it's origins are to keep women in their place and women the world over will defend the indifendibile whatever that might be.

WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 16:48

Julie Bindel pointed that out, she got a barrage of abuse from women who told her to stop infantalising them.

So?

WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 16:56

Sorry I know that is not helpful.

Basically, no one wants to see, for one moment, that they have been manipulated, controlled or influenced. People feel hugely ashamed of being a completely normal, gullible, approval-hungry human that will even harm themselves to feel worthy and socially valuable. It feels embarrassing, weak and stupid.

Lots of people try to claw back a bit of dignity from their humiliating low status ticks by claiming it is their 'choice'....

Yeah, yeah, ... I believe you love... thousands wouldn't. ...

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 16:59

Okay weriseup what’s the solution then? Ban the hijab?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/02/2019 17:00

Banning isn’t a good solution. But it should never be compulsory under the law which thank god it isn’t here.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 17:01

The point I am trying to make is that sexism and exploitation happens everywhere, regardless of religion or race. We choose to see it as particularly bad where the culture is different to our own, which allows us to avoid looking at our own behaviour.

Bicyclethief · 17/02/2019 17:01

Banning is not the answer. Hopefully with time people will see it for what it is and stop wearing them.

WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 17:01

Also claiming you are being 'infantalised' by people who point out the injust indignity of your need to acquiesce to your low status, is a fairly standard and predicable retort.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 17:03

LordProf no, it isn’t. Not by a long shot. In fact wearing one opens women up to abuse from randoms. I saw a man verbally abuse a woman on the bus telling her to ‘go home’. My friend has also seen a hijab-clad woman get spat at.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 17:04

Okay WeRiseUp what’s the solution then?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/02/2019 17:05

Sighs - they always attack the religiously clothed women don’t they? More so than men.

WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 17:07

what’s the solution then?

Foster a situation where calm, non-reactive discussion and analysis of all feminist issues- including patriarchal religion, traditions, other cultural practices, capitalism, etc, etc, can occur- without branding anyone with an opinion of having some hidden agenda.

MargueritaPink · 17/02/2019 17:08

The reason why you see them in Harrods etc is that they are likely to be wealthy tourists who are not resident here. I go to London frequently (not to Harrods), and a full niqab is a rare sight

I go to London frequently too and it is not a rare sight. I mentioned those areas as it is seems incongruous there but those are certainly not the only parts of London I am in.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 17:16

I agree there should be discussion but I think an insistence that you are correct, an unwillingness to listen to Muslim women who are telling you their reasons for wearing it, and claiming that similar practices in religions which are predominantly white are a totally different thing, isn’t going to be very fruitful. No woman should be oppressed or coerced into wearing it, but I don’t think it’s quite as simple as saying that wearing it must mean oppression. I could say the same for practices such as getting one’s father to give one away at a wedding. They are indeed rooted in inequality and patriarchy but taking part in them today doesn’t mean that the person is necessarily oppressed.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 17/02/2019 17:17

Why are we talking about bans? I was talking about examining motivations, and I included my own experiences of religious covering, so that a feminist perspective could be applied, and women could actually be liberated so that their choices weren't coloured by feeling that covering made them safer, or better, or whatever.

Why do thing things have to be so knee jerk? It's a forum for discussion, not a list of things to ban.

OP posts:
Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 17:19

FloralBunting well you got an opinion from someone with direct experience of it.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 17/02/2019 17:22

Yes, someone who decided to take any questions as a direct attack on Islam, despite the explanations of questioning a specific practice, who then flounced. What's your point?

OP posts:
Gronky · 17/02/2019 17:23

All the Christian women who promised to obey their husbands before God must believe in it, surely, because why else say it?

The difference is that one is part of a traditional vow, the other is a direct response to a survey. Furthermore, the Church of England has recognised the potentially negative connotations of 'obey' and has officially stated that it may be omitted from the vows.

The point was driven home to me last year by an exceptionally intelligent young lady (by which I mean, exceptionally intelligent by any standard, rather than suggesting it's unusual for women to be intelligent, before anyone gets their hackles up) who I worked with. Her grandparents are from a non-Arab, Islamic nation and, when discussing her options for career advancement, she mentioned that she wasn't interested in gaining additional education/qualifications because doing so would have likely meant working in another city, where there are more openings at that level.

She went on to explain that her parents had strictly forbidden her from working away from her home city because they wouldn't be able to supervise who she had contact with outside of working hours. What really disturbed me was how comfortable she was with this, despite being otherwise extremely outspoken, she took this limitation as absolutely non-negotiable.

Later in the day, after discussing this with her (she was happy to explain the situation), I was taken aside by our (at the time) resident hard leftist who warned me against 'imposing my culture on others' and threatened to report me for violation of the corporate diversity and equality policy. Being threatened into silence for trying to help another woman improve her career prospects by the same person who'd months earlier been pushing for a company-wide increase in maternity leave was probably one of the most baffling things I've been confronted with.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/02/2019 17:24

I live in London and it’s common enough. I moved here 30 years ago and it was rare back then. Your really only see the old ladies with their gold bird like masks. You would never see a child with a headscarf either.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 17:34

I do agree with debate but many Muslim women have publicly taken offence and raised the problem of white women attempting to speak for them or telling them that their viewpoint on why they dress as they do must be born out of oppression. Nothing is simple I guess.

LordProf I suspect that is due to increased immigration in those 30 years, meaning that you’re more likely to see Muslim children. Muslims are still a small minority of the population in this country though. Over 80% of the population is white.

WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 17:46

They are indeed rooted in inequality and patriarchy but taking part in them today doesn’t mean that the person is necessarily oppressed.

It is worth analysing these things from a feminist position though. Thinking it through. What is this ritual you are acting out? Could it be contributing towards class oppression, even if you don't feel oppressed yourself as an individual? For example, the honeymoon is a symbol of kidnapping that men would do in order to 'get' a wife. In some countries girls are still forced to marry their abductor/rapist because it is too 'shameful' to have been penetrated by a man. Better to get raped by them every day for the rest of her life than bring 'shame' upon her family and not marry him.

It is one of many arms length 'oppression rituals' whuch help to normalise actual oppression. For example BDSM. People who are highly privileged play act at slavery, torture and rape for kicks. By fighting to normalise this ritualised oppression they can normalise and make actual oppression invisible. For example, young women are trafficked into prostitution and filmed being sexually tortutured to supply a demand created by the privileged BDSM market.

It is all worth analysing and unpicking.

deepwatersolo · 17/02/2019 17:53

Didn‘t read the whole thread so I apologize if I am repetitive.

I have read reports from french banlieus, where a girl‘s best protection against rape is wearing the head scarf. Similarly, I have heard from women from Egypt and Syria, who have said it is some protection against harrassment. So, I can see in the context of an environment, where you are treated as a ‚whore‘ wirhout head scarf, that wearing a headscarf ‚empowers‘ and ‚frees‘ you. Even though, objectively, you have submitted to some batshit crazy logic of unreformed patriarchy.
That is also why I do not think there is a point in chiding women for wearing the head scarf as ‚not feminist‘ and whatnot. They act in a context and that context won‘t go away, just because they decide so. The women are not the problem, the bigoted men who basically enforce this by their actions are.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 17:54

Definitely, WeRiseUp. I think the whole institution of marriage is quite troubling when I start to analyse it (lucky I'm not married, eh?). What I am cautious of is ignoring the patriarchal rituals that white women perform while telling Muslim women that they are oppressed because they wear head-dress.

Swipe left for the next trending thread