On the Hijab and human faces.

[FloralBuntingIsObnoxious]

Way back when I wore headcoverings myself as a Christian woman, I took a keen interest in what was taught about the Hijab, and what women themselves had to say about it.

I recall being particularly impressed by something I saw from a number of women about it being 'liberating' because it creates a focus on the face, on the woman as a human, rather than a sex object.

I took that at face value for some time as a good thought, but over time, I've begun to feel very uneasy about it.

For a start, there is an implicit understanding that a woman who is not covering her hair is a sex object, not a human. It all leads in to this notion that if a woman does not cover herself then she is not as worthy of respect as those women who do.

Then there is the understandable desire to be seen as a human, rather than simply subject to the male gaze. I feel it myself when I'm not wearing make up and just want to get on with my day - a sort of wish to be invisible to leering glances.

But why is there this strange notion that only our faces are 'human'? My whole body is part of what makes me human, the same as a man. How come a Muslim man is able to walk around with hair uncovered and still be seen as a human, but a woman does not have that ability unless we can only see her face? This 'disembodying' is so harmful.

Anyway, just some rolled around thoughts I had this morning while reading some things about the objections to hijab. I'd be interested in a discussion about it.

I'm not fighting for your rights.

I have no time for a religion that tells women they have to dress in a certain way and oddly the rules imposed on male dress don't require the same restrictions.

And I have no time or respect for any religion which uses the crimes of blasphemy or apostasy to force itself on non- believers.

The mantilla is for modesty - to prevent men getting distracted in church by looking at some beautiful hair. Traditionally, unmarried women/girls wear a white mantilla as they are still ‘pure’. Once married and no longer so, a black mantilla should be worn.
Men should not cover their heads in church. It’s disrespectful!

I am very open to people disagreeing with me, but what I'm not going to allow is for people to make factual negative statements about Islam without any evidence at all that are just not true. Because that leads to bigotry, hatred and physical violence.

I am going to leave this thread now because it doesn't seem you want to have a discussion based on facts.

I'm very happy though to meet people in person and have this discussion. PM me if you want to meet up and we can talk.

And I have no time or respect for any religion which uses the crimes of blasphemy or apostasy to force itself on non- believers

That's what you think my faith is, and I can understand why if you believe that about my faith, you have no respect for it. But could I ask of you one thing please? Can you respect my right to believe in whatever I want to please? Thank you.

Spanielmadness which is nuts really, because mantillas are often extremely ornate and pretty, so how could they not be distracting but hair would be? It's like saying a naked woman would be distracting, but if we put her in lacy undies, no one will notice!

I am going to leave this thread now because it doesn't seem you want to have a discussion based on facts

Yes we do, and opinions, which vary even amongst Muslim women. You’re leaving because people are saying things about your religion you don’t like.

Can you respect my right to believe in whatever I want to please? Thank you.

That’s the second time you’ve said that, implying somehow that comments here are trying to deny your right to believe whatever you want, which hasn’t happened here. If you aren’t prepared for robust discussion about the title of this thread, then don’t join in. But don’t imply your rights are being infringed upon here because some of us don’t believe what you do.

Well, it's a shame you're leaving, but you seem to be talking at cross purposes anyway, wanting to defend Islam when I wanted to talk about hijab. I genuinely understand the motivation to stick up for your faith, but I wasn't attacking your faith, I was discussing why some women would feel that a garment covering them would make them feel better in a culture that allows them to be objectified, and perhaps what we could do to challenge that.

That's what you think my faith is, and I can understand why if you believe that about my faith, you have no respect for it. But could I ask of you one thing please? Can you respect my right to believe in whatever I want to please? Thank you

It is not a question of my believing this. It is the actual law of Pakistan, Afghanistan , Iran and Saudi Arabia. But your position seems to be those countries are wrongly interpreting Islam. I'm sure they would say the same about you.

I have no idea what your particular faith is. And no I don't respect your faith. I respect your right to believe what you want as long as you don't force your beliefs on anyone else.

FFS margueritapink did you have to turn this thread into an anti-islam/Muslim rant?And herein lies the problem: any discussion about hijab always attracts ppl with malign intentions or those with an axe to grind because they read the Daily Heil. Happens every fucking time.

WonderK chose to broaden out the discussion.

Do you deny there are Islamic countries which seek to impose severe penalties on non believers? Have you heard of Asia Bibi?

FFS margueritapink did you have to turn this thread into an anti-islam/Muslim rant?

She did no such thing, grow up

I was discussing why some women would feel that a garment covering them would make them feel better in a culture that allows them to be objectified, and perhaps what we could do to challenge that

If you are really genuine, then the answer to that is actually quite simple. Educate them that Islam does NOT objectify them nor look at them as solely sexual beings. That a woman's worth in Islam is NOT defined by whether she covers or wears hijab or not. That may be the case in other faiths (maybe in Judaism?) But that is NOT in Islam. This is what will get rid of this mindset you are talking about and you have heard about. And it is powerful and will work. And that's the message that Muslim scholars (especially female ones) are working on hard to make sure it is heard by most Muslims, and it will take time but it will be heard. Good day to you all.

That may be the case in other faiths (maybe in Judaism?)

Nope.

www.myjewishlearning.com/article/hair-coverings-for-married-women/

(Remember - two Jews, three opinions.)

Good grief, could you be any more determined to misconstrue everything? 'If you're genuine'? Seriously, there's just no need for the defensiveness.

Yes, I agree that education is entirely the way forward. As a Catholic myself, I am well aware of the need to examine the many facets of my faith and be honest about the things which are unhelpful, or misunderstandings, or whatever. I believe very firmly in an understanding of Christianity that does not oppress women, but I have to acknowledge that the way in which it has been historically understood has been used to oppress women. Islam is no different.

It is not an attack on someone's faith to examine the ways in which certain aspects of that faith are used to damage and coerce.

I'm an atheist so I find God says I should wear so-and-so equally impenetrable from whichever faith it comes. I accept that some people will want to wear faith-appropriate ate gear and that's fine and that we, as a society, must also also be clear that women from faith backgrounds can leave them/wear what they want and must not be coerced.

But how about we move this on a bit and talk about the point at which a wearable item ceases to become a totem of a religion or a tool of patriarchy and is just a tradition whose origins no longer apply across the board?

What about wedding rings? Still a sign of male ownership or by now just a bit of bling signifying a freely established family unit?

This counts for hijab surely? Some women wear it because religion. Some women wear it because assertion of ethnic/cultural identity. Some women wear it for fashion. Some equally don't wear it for all the same reasons.

What about wedding rings? Still a sign of male ownership or by now just a bit of bling signifying a freely established family unit?

We chose not to wear them, married young so initially did and then ditched them. Also didn’t take his name. It’s strange the amount of people that have questioned our commitment because we don’t wear rings! 30 years later and the lack of rings doesn’t mean a thing!

We had wedding rings because a family friend was a jeweller and offered to make one-off pieces to our specs as his gift! Neither of us wear them now: me because my fingers got fatter and the style I chose can't really be made bigger and him because he caught it once and work and hurt his finger quite badly. But y'know. Ancient sign of ownership! We should have said no in the first place! That just sounds silly, doesn't it? Cos time has moved on.

I don't see why it has to be 'ownership' if both wear the rings. Surely it can be a symbol of commitment. Marriage is a pretty hefty one.

Yes, there's a shift in the symbolism - could such a shift occur with the hijab beyond an 'identity' thing? I kind of think there are connotations to women covering in a way that men don't that don't lend themselves quite so easily to a different understanding of that symbolism.

But then, as our Muslim visitor who has now flounced pointed out, the submission to God's will is the main motivation, and I do wonder if that can ever be a symbol of something positive for women if it's women being asked to wear something that men are not. This is a question I ask myself all the time, before anyone comes to clobber me for having a go at Islam or whatever.

What about wedding rings? Still a sign of male ownership or by now just a bit of bling signifying a freely established family unit?

Rings these days for many women are an outward sign that they have “achieved” marriage, and are not some lonely old spinster. See also changing names and use of Mrs. Marriage still grants women a status above career or any personal achievements.

As for the o/p, what actually is it about hair?

It’s hair, we all have it, it keeps us warm and stops our heads getting sunburn. From hair coverings to hairdresser angst and parental rights of childrens haircuts, what is it about hair?

I have heard “crowning glory” often. I usually look and think it’s hair. It looks like hair. If it’s very long it usually looks more in need of a good trim than glorious.

I think there are maybe different factors in the UK as opposed to other countries, in that in the UK relatively few people are Muslims.

I think in other countries this may be less so.

I've seen women in other countries sharing stuff on social media about how women who don't wear hijab will be burned in hell.

I know at the Muslim primary schools in Indonesia girls of 5 or 6 are required to wear hijab. And in some areas that applies at the non-religious schools as well.

You can see here in 1956, in this photo of Padang's University opinikoe.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ranah-minang-2.jpg that almost no women were wearing hijab

I guess this is early 1990s? It's in the same area.

i.ytimg.com/vi/_zEyzewQKmU/maxresdefault.jpg

Nowadays everyone is wearing hijab scontent.fltn2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13707816_995122910601212_4744423718917911229_n.jpg

I think the hijab is used to create religious divides, in that I've seen stuff shared by women about how those who expose their face to men are going to hell, and it seems calculated to 'other' non-hijab wearers.

A friend of mine used to belong to a weird Christian sect. I don't know which one. But he did tell me that when women prayed, the men would stand with their hands above the woman's head to prevent her having direct access to God, because women weren't allowed direct access to God. I wonder if this comes from the same root as the hijab and other head coverings for women, e.g. in the middle ages women were not allowed to show their hair.

Performant piety is something that you can do with the hijab - one woman I know has a husband who takes hard drugs, and she was posting pictures of herself on FB in a niqab and saying 'Oh this suits me', or words to that effect. It seemed a bit ironic to me.

I think it's a bit like hajj/umrah in that you can demonstrate your religiosity to others without necessarily being a good Muslim. Obviously hajj/umrah costs thousands of pounds, so that's a much more expensive statement of that, but the act of wearing a hijab is performant in some of the same ways.

You do get men, often young men in the UK I've seen, wearing Islamic clothing of some kind (white robes or whatever), and it could be seen as the same thing, however the difference is that they can don their costumes as and when it's convenient, as opposed to wearing it all the time

That a woman's worth in Islam is NOT defined by whether she covers or wears hijab or not. That may be the case in other faiths (maybe in Judaism?) But that is NOT in Islam.

Sheik Halili does not agree

Also i0.wp.com/www.hindupost.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/hijab-lollipop1.jpg?ssl=1