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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

On the Hijab and human faces.

207 replies

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 14/02/2019 12:39

Way back when I wore headcoverings myself as a Christian woman, I took a keen interest in what was taught about the Hijab, and what women themselves had to say about it.

I recall being particularly impressed by something I saw from a number of women about it being 'liberating' because it creates a focus on the face, on the woman as a human, rather than a sex object.

I took that at face value for some time as a good thought, but over time, I've begun to feel very uneasy about it.

For a start, there is an implicit understanding that a woman who is not covering her hair is a sex object, not a human. It all leads in to this notion that if a woman does not cover herself then she is not as worthy of respect as those women who do.

Then there is the understandable desire to be seen as a human, rather than simply subject to the male gaze. I feel it myself when I'm not wearing make up and just want to get on with my day - a sort of wish to be invisible to leering glances.

But why is there this strange notion that only our faces are 'human'? My whole body is part of what makes me human, the same as a man. How come a Muslim man is able to walk around with hair uncovered and still be seen as a human, but a woman does not have that ability unless we can only see her face? This 'disembodying' is so harmful.

Anyway, just some rolled around thoughts I had this morning while reading some things about the objections to hijab. I'd be interested in a discussion about it.

OP posts:
WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 14:50

Shying away from or, worse still, trying to stifle legitimate discussion because of the potential for overlap with those being had by racists or other hateful types leaves said racists as the only ones having the discussion. This means that others with similar concerns are only going to be engaged by the racists.

True. This situation seems to be currently fostered by people who wish to maintain the industrial abuse and exploitation of women and girls - they smear, demonise and sabotage feminists so it seems only people on the right are bothered - and so being bothered 'therefore' means you are right wing.

Gronky · 17/02/2019 15:02

and so being bothered 'therefore' means you are right wing.

I find it both disturbing and fascinating how fundamental Islamists have managed to affix themselves to left wing identity politics when, in any other context, the values they hold would be diametrically opposed to those of the far left (or indeed the vast majority of those on the main portion of the contemporary political spectrum).

Yossarian22 · 17/02/2019 15:14

I find it both disturbing and fascinating how fundamental Islamists have managed to affix themselves to left wing identity politics
Really? They’ve managed to affix themselves?Fundamentalist Islamic groups lobbying left wing politicians, taking them out to lunch and sponsoring meetings to gain influence? Yeah right 🙄
Isn’t it more the case that left wingers have been so keen to be right on and inclusive they can no longer tell their arse from their elbow and are on board with all sorts of nonsense?

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 15:14

In all honesty though, why is this conversation not being had about Orthodox Jews? Women cover their hair there too, wearing hats or wigs. Why is that not picked up on?
Other religions, e.g. Sikhism, places demands on men too, such as wearing turbans.
It's always difficult, but there's a big problem with the assumption that everything we do here in the West is great and that other cultures or religions are backwards. And refusing to listen to someone who has direct experience, both personal and academic, speaks volumes.

MargueritaPink · 17/02/2019 15:22

In all honesty though, why is this conversation not being had about Orthodox Jews? Women cover their hair there too, wearing hats or wigs. Why is that not picked up on?

Orthodox Jews are a tiny minority group in the UK. On the other hand every day in every UK town you will see women wearing a scarf completely hiding their hair, or a garment completely hiding their bodies- even the version which hides everything other than eyes is not uncommon.

Wearing a hat or a wig or a turban isn't covering the face in the way Islamic coverings do. I wear a hat for most of the winter months.

Yossarian22 · 17/02/2019 15:30

On the other hand every day in every UK town you will see women wearing a scarf completely hiding their hair, or a garment completely hiding their bodies- even the version which hides everything other than eyes is not uncommon.A tad hysterical.
Btw they’re not, not seen any in my town.

andyoldlabour · 17/02/2019 15:30

"In all honesty though, why is this conversation not being had about Orthodox Jews? Women cover their hair there too, wearing hats or wigs. Why is that not picked up on?
Other religions, e.g. Sikhism, places demands on men too, such as wearing turbans."

There is a huge difference between someone wearing a turban or hat, and someone dressed in a niqab, as shown in this link.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niq%C4%81b

Many young Sikhs no longer wear the turban, and many do drink alcohol and smoke.

andyoldlabour · 17/02/2019 15:33

"Btw they’re not, not seen any in my town."

It is becoming more common down here in Kent. It is very common in many parts of London, many parts of Birmingham and the Midlands in general, and extremely common in many Yorkshire and Lancashire towns.

Gronky · 17/02/2019 15:35

Yossarian22, thank you for pointing out how that assertion was structured. I agree with your description.

MargueritaPink · 17/02/2019 15:35

On the other hand every day in every UK town you will see women wearing a scarf completely hiding their hair, or a garment completely hiding their bodies- even the version which hides everything other than eyes is not uncommon.A tad hysterical.
Btw they’re not, not seen any in my town

A tad hysterical? What rot. Try going out in London, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Birmingham, Manchester etc. But to keep you happy most towns and all cities in the UK.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 15:35

Orthodox Jews are a tiny minority group in the UK.

So? Surely if you are against the principle of hair-covering for religious reasons, the number of participants isn't the major factor?

On the other hand every day in every UK town you will see women wearing a scarf completely hiding their hair, or a garment completely hiding their bodies- even the version which hides everything other than eyes is not uncommon.

Actually, it is very rare to see the full niqab. If you live in an area where people who wear it live, then you will see it regularly. But it is far from a regular occurrence and I cannot remember the last time I saw someone dressed in niqab.

Wearing a hat or a wig or a turban isn't covering the face in the way Islamic coverings do. I wear a hat for most of the winter months.

The point is, Orthodox Jewish women cannot show their hair either. The hijab does not hide the face. I can't see why you have no issue with one of them but think the other is terrible.

Gronky · 17/02/2019 15:37

Orthodox Jewish women cannot show their hair either

Orthodox married Jewish women cannot show their hair.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 15:41

Orthodox married Jewish women cannot show their hair.

Yes, but why does that make a difference? It's still a religious form of dress that prohibits the showing of one's natural hair.

I think banning head-coverings will have zero impact in terms of liberating women. It also feeds into the narrative that Muslim men are somehow worse and more oppressive than Western men, which is not true.

Yossarian22 · 17/02/2019 15:42

Stating women in niqab are seen in every town, every day in the UK is verging in hysteria.
Why are you so offended seeing people dressed differently to you? Let them live in peace and stop stirring the pot.

MargueritaPink · 17/02/2019 15:43

So? Surely if you are against the principle of hair-covering for religious reasons, the number of participants isn't the major factor?

I am against the covering of the whole head in the way the hijab covers it. A wig for all intents and purposes is still showing hair and a hat isn't covering hair.

Actually, it is very rare to see the full niqab. If you live in an area where people who wear it live, then you will see it regularly. But it is far from a regular occurrence and I cannot remember the last time I saw someone dressed in niqab

It is not uncommon in Edinburgh and I see it every time I'm in London. Always seems very incongruous in places like Harrods, Harvey Nicks and Bond Street.

MargueritaPink · 17/02/2019 15:44

Stating women in niqab are seen in every town, every day in the UK is verging in hysteria
Why are you so offended seeing people dressed differently to you? Let them live in peace and stop stirring the pot

I find the concept of enforced modesty offensive.

Gronky · 17/02/2019 15:49

It also feeds into the narrative that Muslim men are somehow worse and more oppressive than Western men, which is not true.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

"39% [of British Muslims] agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole"

WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 15:54

Orthodox Jews are hardly the fastest growing religious group though are they? There is feminist critique to be had because of the shit divorce rights for women, etc, but it's not the same at all.

Yossarian22 · 17/02/2019 15:56

I find the concept of enforced modesty offensive.
So you’ve asked each and everyone of these ‘oppressed’ women have you? Obligatory for some, keeping up with societal trends for some, choice for others.

WeRiseUp · 17/02/2019 16:03

Some women, hand on heart, say they choose to wear foot-crippling, heels, skin-choking make up, flimsy, uncomfortable clothes that they need to be conscious of at every moment, etc. A feminist does not need to ask each one of these women how they feel about it to assess that it is sexism and some women find it easier/more rewarding to totally buy in than to reject it.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 16:06

The reason why you see them in Harrods etc is that they are likely to be wealthy tourists who are not resident here. I go to London frequently (not to Harrods), and a full niqab is a rare sight.

A moment ago you said it was the face you objected to being covered- now it's the head. So wig covering all natural hair is fine, but scarf that covers the neck but bares the face (which is what most Muslim women who wear head covering wear) is not. Okay.

Gronky I sadly don't think the UK males surveyed practice what they preach. You only need to read Relationships on here to see the horrible way many men treat their partners, including violence and financial and sexual abuse. Violence and sexism are endemic, regardless of race or religion. I don't think Muslim men present some sort of 'over and above' threat to women at all. It wasn't long ago in this country that the Christian wedding vows included the word 'obey' either.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 16:10

WeRiseUp and when Julie Bindel pointed that out, she got a barrage of abuse from women who told her to stop infantalising them.
It's dangerous to come at a religion and culture that you don't understand, from a white Western perspective. I mean, if you're interested in a religion that really treats women like shit under the shoe, try Roman Catholicism to begin with (sexual abuse, Magdalen laundries, anti-abortion, women should stay in the home). Oh, but I do believe they can keep their hair uncovered.

Gronky · 17/02/2019 16:14

Gronky I sadly don't think the UK males surveyed practice what they preach.

Do you have any theories as to why one group might be several times more comfortable with admitting that they believe women should always obey their husbands?

andyoldlabour · 17/02/2019 16:14

"It also feeds into the narrative that Muslim men are somehow worse and more oppressive than Western men, which is not true."

Here is a link to an Islamic Q & A forum, where an Imam giving advice, clearly says that it is OK for a Muslim man to beat his wife.
One half of my family are Muslim, and I have witnessed overt misogyny from two male relatives several times.

islamqa.info/en/answers/41199/hitting-ones-wife

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 17/02/2019 16:19

Do I have any theories? Religion is no doubt a factor. But all religions are. How about you survey a load of hardline Christians and then make the same comparison.

Do you have any statistics showing that Muslim men are more likely than non-Muslim men to be oppressive towards women around them? Because this conversation is starting to feel a bit Katie Hopkins-esque.

Anyoldlabour well, I know of various while British men who have beaten their wives or partners too.