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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

On the Hijab and human faces.

207 replies

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 14/02/2019 12:39

Way back when I wore headcoverings myself as a Christian woman, I took a keen interest in what was taught about the Hijab, and what women themselves had to say about it.

I recall being particularly impressed by something I saw from a number of women about it being 'liberating' because it creates a focus on the face, on the woman as a human, rather than a sex object.

I took that at face value for some time as a good thought, but over time, I've begun to feel very uneasy about it.

For a start, there is an implicit understanding that a woman who is not covering her hair is a sex object, not a human. It all leads in to this notion that if a woman does not cover herself then she is not as worthy of respect as those women who do.

Then there is the understandable desire to be seen as a human, rather than simply subject to the male gaze. I feel it myself when I'm not wearing make up and just want to get on with my day - a sort of wish to be invisible to leering glances.

But why is there this strange notion that only our faces are 'human'? My whole body is part of what makes me human, the same as a man. How come a Muslim man is able to walk around with hair uncovered and still be seen as a human, but a woman does not have that ability unless we can only see her face? This 'disembodying' is so harmful.

Anyway, just some rolled around thoughts I had this morning while reading some things about the objections to hijab. I'd be interested in a discussion about it.

OP posts:
Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 09:15

But the truth is Muslim women wear hijab because God asked them to. It is a dress code given to them by god, and there is a dress code for men too.

Well that’s handy isn’t it, women have to cover almost every bit of skin because ‘ god told them to’. How did he do that? He didn’t speak to them personally did he? So where was that message given and who was the messenger?

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:20

@Oxytocindeficient

Well that’s handy isn’t it, women have to cover almost every bit of skin because ‘ god told them to’. How did he do that? He didn’t speak to them personally did he? So where was that message given and who was the messenger?

That's the different between you and I. I believe in Islam so yes I do believe God spoke to Prophet Muhammad (the messenger), and he revealed the Qur'an (i believe are God's words) which has guidance as to how Muslims should live their life.

I don't expect you to believe the above of course but I do expect you to respect my right to believe in Islam or any other faith or non faith of my choosing. Just as I respect your right not to believe in Islam.

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:21

Difference* / sorry typing on my phone!

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 15/02/2019 09:23

Well if they do, that's a problem with our society then, rather than the faith

Intriguing response. Where have I mentioned Islam as a faith? I've been talking very specifically about hijab. I've been talking about the problems that the prevalence of the male gaze causes. I understand the defensiveness, but I'm not going to have an argument about Islam, because you may believe as you wish, as I do. I'm talking about a dress code which is imposed by law in parts of the world, and by societal pressure in others. It's the control aspects and the reasoning behind that I'm interested in.

OP posts:
Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 09:23

There’s nothing in what I said that would indicate I don’t respect your right to believe whatever you wish. I will, if you discuss it here, comment or challenge it, and you’ll have to respect my right to do that.

So, what your answer actually reveals of course, is that men told women to cover themselves. You just happen to believe, based solely on the word of men, that ‘god’ told them to tell women to cover up. I don’t believe that myself, I believe men manipulate and use the idea of god as a means to control others, particularly women. That’s my right to believe that, and to say it here.

Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 09:24

I'm talking about a dress code which is imposed by law in parts of the world, and by societal pressure in others. It's the control aspects and the reasoning behind that I'm interested in.

Me too

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:27

OP, it's got nothing to with defensive. Your whole argument in your opening statement is on the premise that women that don't wear hijab are seen as sexual objects in the Muslim faith. That is categorically wrong. You haven't bought forward any evidence at all to support your statement. Which leads me to suspect that you don't want to hear the truth

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:30

Im talking about a dress code which is imposed by law in parts of the world, and by societal pressure in others. It's the control aspects and the reasoning behind that I'm interested in

That's a problem with that country's law then, NOT with Islam. Islam is very very clear about giving people the freedom to choose whether they want to practice the faith or not, or parts of the faith or not.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 15/02/2019 09:32

There's no need to bold your entire posts, WonderK.

I am talking about conversations I had with women about a decade ago, talking about their own feelings and motivations for wearing hijab. I'm not quite sure what evidence you'd like me to produce.
I'm sure you must be aware that the official teachings of a religion aren't the whole story in how people experience it.

OP posts:
MargueritaPink · 15/02/2019 09:37

Apostasy and blasphemy are punishable by imprisonment and even death in several Islamic countries. I'm sure those countries think that is correct per their religion.

I assume you have heard of Asia Bibi?

NeurotrashWarrior · 15/02/2019 09:37

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious

I've just started a thread some of you may find interesting regarding:

it it totally tied in to the male gaze, the sexualisation and objectification of women and the subjugation of women by men.

An interesting section of activism that's just started in our art galleries.

NeurotrashWarrior · 15/02/2019 09:38

Art Activist Barbie www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3508600-art-activist-barbie

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:40

@FloralBuntingIsObnoxious

You made a factual statement in your opening that in Islam women that don't wear hijab are treated less respectfully. I am asking you to provide evidence for your statement.

On another, you admit your conversations were a decade ago. I've just told you mine and my friends' experiences. You don't want to hear that but want to make sweeping judgements on Islam based on conversations you had a decade ago!

As for making posts bold, I'll make bold whichever posts I want to, thank you very much.

MargueritaPink · 15/02/2019 09:41

Oh and the tiny number of Christian women who might still wear a hat in church (not that I've seen any- even hats at weddings are less common) bears no comparison to wearing a hijab all the time.

And nuns are completely irrelevant to this- most Christian women are not nuns.

Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 09:47

As for making posts bold, I'll make bold whichever posts I want to, thank you very much

Of course you can, but if you ignore the polite requests and direction that it is considered rude, or combative, then you may not get any more responses. You’re not extending respect for people you are in discussion with. @ people is also not widely appreciated here, as we get unnecessary emails when we’re already in the thread.

Sheelala · 15/02/2019 09:49

Islam is very very clear about giving people the freedom to choose whether they want to practice the faith or not, or parts of the faith or not.

Err earth to WonderK. What does it say about apostasy ? Homosexuals ? In any case given the slaughter that has and does go on over differing interpretations of religious texts, it's hard to take seriously anyone who says they are "very clear".

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:54

@Sheelala Right, so you know better than me about a faith (Islam) that I spent 15 years studying in an academic environment.

WeRiseUp · 15/02/2019 09:58

All patriarchal religions are sexist and encode the ritualistic subjugation of women in their practices.

It's all very convenient to say 'God told us to do it'.

In a feminism and women's rights forum such an assertions will be unpicked.

WonderK · 15/02/2019 09:59

Oxytocindeficient - I wasn't aware of the notification you get using @, my apologies.

On another point, I am fed up of people not listening to Muslim women's voices. Especially from women who claim to be 'fighting' for our rights, completely ignore what we have to say. It feels like utter hypocrisy.

Sheelala · 15/02/2019 10:03

WonderK

Well, there are a great many Muslims who don't believe what you do at all, so you can't all be right. The majority around the world don't seem to agree with you, so whether you believe your interpretation to be correct or not is academic.

Racecardriver · 15/02/2019 10:05

The problem with the hijab is that it places the onus on women UK control when men think/want/do.

Sureyouwill · 15/02/2019 10:06

Why did God suggest this sort of dress?

Racecardriver · 15/02/2019 10:09

@wonderuk are we talking about Turkic Islam here?

There is a broad distinction to be drawn between Turkic and Arabic Islamic practices. Turkic mosques/muslims tend to be much more civilised and tolerant of women. I come from a Turkic Islamic culture myself. No one wears a hijab outside of prayer and generally the attitude taken towards women isn’t particularly different towards the attitude taken towards men in terms of ‘modesty’.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 15/02/2019 10:11

WonderK, I'm not trying to tell you how to post, it was simply a polite pointing out that bolding your entire post isn't necessary.

Fwiw, I appreciate you on the thread, because yes, Muslim women's voices are important, and if you've read the previous page, I'm not interested in imposing bans or anything of that nature and I'm entirely content that there are certainly Muslim women who choose the Hijab because they are personally and religiously convinced, and that's fine.

I wanted to have a discussion about the hijab and led in with my conversations with Muslim women, and included some of my own experiences of headcovering. I made no comment on Islam as a faith, I specifically talked about women's own experiences. There really is no need to be quite so combative in a conversation on the topic.

OP posts:
Oxytocindeficient · 15/02/2019 10:15

On another point, I am fed up of people not listening to Muslim women's voices. Especially from women who claim to be 'fighting' for our rights, completely ignore what we have to say. It feels like utter hypocrisy.

Not agreeing does not equal, not listening. You’ll have to learn to accept that someone may listen, and yet still strongly disagree or debate what you’ve said.

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