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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mixed-sex toilets in schools - children's actual views?

132 replies

Oldstyle · 12/02/2019 19:19

Do we know what kids actually think about this? Planners & policy-makers seem to feel it's not a problem, and that it lessens bullying (no idea how) although it is currently illegal in Wales for children over 8 years old apparently.
Lleisiau Merched Cymru/Women's Voices Wales are asking for feedback from girls (or boys) who have mixed-sex toilets in their schools. Ideally from Wales but also from other parts of the UK. So is there any real-life evidence either way?

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CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 21:11

And here is what I said on the other thread:

KHTeach We have mixed sex loos at the school I teach at and there are no problems

With respect, you simply cannot know that. All of these pronouncements that there are no problems, rely on the child or the children raising their distress at having to - in breach of their human rights btw - share toilets with the other sex with a staff member, for the staff member to take any notice and not just dismiss her outright or minimise her objections and to then mention this to their colleagues.

And all of that in a school that may have made it abundantly clear to children and staff alike that this is done to be kind to gender questioning children. Any girl complaining is therefore immediately outing herself as unkind.

Even worse, given that all of the guidance issued by trans rights orgs on the treatment of children who identify as trans frames girls' distress at losing their human right to privacy, dignity and safety and their absolute right to asserting their boundaries around their own bodies against all male children, however they identify, as problematic, disrespectful or unjustified, it takes a brave girl indeed to raise her voice and say I don't want to share my toilets with boys.

I have asked the many, many children I meet every school day about this and have not once had a girl saying I'm fine with this. I have however heard from a large number of girls (and boys) who are self-excluding from mixed-sex toilets in other schools, who just don't drink throughout the day and wait till they're back home. Would you know about these children if they never tell you?

Also, 60% of our girls have either experienced sexual harassment at school themselves or have witnessed it, even more girls have experienced sexual harassment outside of school. Every single school day a child is raped in UK schools and we know from rape statistics that at least 90% of them will be female children.

The vast majority of these girls feel distress at being forced to share with males in places where they are in a state of undress and therefore feel particularly vulnerable.

Are you seriously expecting such a girl to single herself out from her peers and to disclose her assault to a teacher just so she can have her legally mandated single-sex toilet back?

Child victims of sexual abuse have a right under Article 39 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child to have the state - and by extension you as their teacher - help them recover from abuse. A huge part of that is providing single-sex sanitary and changing facilities for all children, that respect their sex-based needs and their rights - as provided for in the Equality Act 2010 - to these single-sex spaces.

Another important step in aiding the recovery of sexual abuse victims (the vast majority of whom are female) is respecting the boundaries around their own bodies (that we spend so much time teaching our children they are entitled to have and to assert). And to not just listen to their views when they pluck up the courage to speak up, but to actively seek out their views before embracing these harmful practices that breach the human rights of children.

Your "no problem" mixed-sex toilets are in violation of national laws (Equality Act 2010), of the school building regulations and international laws (the human rights of children under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child). I'd say that's a huge fucking problem. But maybe that's just me.

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 21:19

I'd also like to ask, how do you define "problems"? You stated on the other thread that staff have to supervise the toilets, which indicates multiple problems to me. My DC attended a primary school with well over 600 pupils in an area with some of the highest numbers of deprived children in the country and they have never had to supervise the single-sex toilets outside of infant school (where staff may be needed to help some of the children).

You clearly haven't considered the distress of children at having to share with the other sex as a problem or the issue of children self-excluding from the toilets or menstruating girls from school, so what are you problem-free of?

Dothehappydance · 13/02/2019 21:19

Alexa I actually hadn't thought about that and I wonder now where the Muslim girls go. It is a school with a significant % of pupils for who English is not their first language. (Twice the national average) I know this doesn't equate to the number of Muslim pupils but it is likely to be higher than the national average. I certainly see a significant number of girls wearing headscarves walking to school. (I live right by it).

I'll ask my DD what her friends do.

AnyOldPrion · 13/02/2019 21:36

My 14 year old DS refused to use the new mixed sex toilets in the shopping centre near us.

He’d be very unhappy if they had them at school.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 13/02/2019 22:37

Great posts Charlie 100% agree with everything you said.

OldCrone · 13/02/2019 22:41

UNESCO identifies a lack of single sex toilets in schools as a major barrier to girls' access to education worldwide.

Education plans should therefore make it a priority to provide all schools with single sex toilets.

When this is seen as a priority in other countries around the world, why is the UK going in the opposite direction?

TerfectlyImperfect · 13/02/2019 22:51

Primary school kids only allowed to use toilets at break and playtime seems wrong to me anyway, downright cruel in fact.

GGMummy3 · 13/02/2019 22:51

*<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=gem-report-2017.unesco.org/en/chapter/gender_recommendations/" target="_blank">UNESCO identifies a lack of single sex toilets in schools as a major barrier to girls' access to education worldwide.

Education plans should therefore make it a priority to provide all schools with single sex toilets.

When this is seen as a priority in other countries around the world, why is the UK going in the opposite direction?*

This so much!

mindgoinground12 · 13/02/2019 22:56

Personally and I don't frequent the feminist boards often.

In an ideal world we'd have both boys, girls and unisex (for those uncomfortable using single sex spaces) but we don't live in a perfect world!

puffylovett · 13/02/2019 22:56

No way would my son use a mixed sex loo! Either of them, in fact. 9 and 12 years old. Especially if they needed a number 2.

LeadMeToTheChocolate · 13/02/2019 23:01

We purposely avoided applying to high schools with mixed toilets- they stank to high heaven despite being new in 2 of the schools we looked round- and I mean STANK- one was open plan, it was vile.
DD refused point blank to even consider the schools purely for the toilet situation.
I don’t blame her.
One word: periods.
Girls have enough going on without subjecting them to added stress and worry about using the bogs when in the first few years of periods.
Fucking stupid idea!

Arkos · 13/02/2019 23:06

We have them at our school. I genuinely don't think there's any issues. It's open plan onto corridor. Cubicles marked girl or boy. Floor to ceiling doors and walls. No space for bullying/smokers etc.

I think back to my school years and I wouldn't use the toilets as the mean girls would hang about laughing and smoking etc.
Open plan had eliminated that type.

Im off for the week now but I tell you what I will ask the pupils next week and do a survey if you like.

Dothehappydance · 13/02/2019 23:08

Those of you that have experienced mixed sex loos what are they like?

As I have said before at dd's school they have single sex cubicles that open onto the corridor, do other schools just have a 'free for all' set up?

The school is over subscribed so it doesn't seem to put people off, (not that we have that luxury of choice.)

AlexaShutUp · 13/02/2019 23:11

I tell you what I will ask the pupils next week and do a survey if you like.

You might be surprised. My dd and her friends all hate them, but I doubt that they have fed back their concerns to the school.

Arkos · 13/02/2019 23:15

I doubt I'd be surprised. I have a good relationship and my kids are not generally shy at stating their opinions. I can do an anonymous survey.
They wouldn't lie as there is no chance the arrangements would change... the building has been designed like that...so I'd think they'd say if they were unhappy even if they knew nothing would be done

Oldstyle · 13/02/2019 23:31

That would be really helpful Arkos - thanks!

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JazzyJelly · 13/02/2019 23:35

To answer the question about the teachers, I taught in a school where they had mixed sex toilets, and the staff were encouraged to use them too. All the female staff ended up sharing the single (female only) cubicle in the office, which meant often not being able to pee in a break time. Horrendous.

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 23:37

Arkos are these toilets self-contained with a sink in the cubicle, for use by one person, opening onto a corridor? Those are called unisex toilets and they are not a concern at all, although there can be complaints about them being unsanitary if the boys pee standing up and don't clean up after themselves.

The mixed-sex toilets that are unlawful have rows of cubicles in a room with shared sinks (some schools have the sinks in the middle and one row of cubicles on each side, often designated to one sex each). Because these facilities can be used by several pupils at the same time, they are against the law if pupils of either sex are allowed to use them.

jocktamsonsbairn · 13/02/2019 23:42

I used to work in a school which had micedcsex toilets. They were vile, pee and the liquid soap all over the floor from we boys, and girls tried so hard not to need to go a lot of them wet themselves. Lots of unflushed poi's and toilet roll stuffed down toilets. Plus graffiti for the older (mostly boys) which wasn't appropriate.

Arkos · 13/02/2019 23:43

Ah right... unisex. No problem there then. Mixed sex in one room sounds crazy

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 23:44

Dothehappydance have used mixed-sex toilets, not at school, but in a very busy shopping centre. It was very spacious, bright and clean (were) constantly being cleaned), cubicles had floor to ceiling walls and doors, sinks were shared in the middle but with big mirrors, so you couldn't see across. As long as it was busy, it felt fine and was great for parents with opposite-sex children. At night time, I didn't like them and used the single-sex toilets that were also available instead.

CharlieParley · 13/02/2019 23:47

Thanks Arkos

quixote9 · 14/02/2019 02:11

Just a practical pointer suitable only for reasonably agile girls. (I come from a long line of refugee women who had to make do in some deeply unpleasant circumstances. My mother taught me this stuff when we were visiting what was then the Soviet Union and some of the toilets looked like they'd skipped the intervening steps and we were already at the waste treatment facility.)

A toilet which is too gross to sit on: use as you would one of those floor toilets in, say, India. Perch on the rim and squat. Do not fall in... Do practice at home before attempting it. Or, if the girl is tall enough, hover above the stupid thing.

If you're really cross at management, make sure your shoes are dirty before standing on the rim. (Yes, this whole business makes me livid. It's always women's rights and comfort that are disposable.)

ChattyLion · 14/02/2019 03:21

another thread with sone relevant points:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3379144-Feminist-school-governor

I agree about the UTI result for the girls if they are avoiding using the mixed sex toilets. Girls will already be more at risk of getting Uti because of female biology so more likely to be urgently and frequently needing the toilet as a result. Why should they sit on pissed on toilet seats or walk on wet floors when they may already be needing to spend more time in there?

There can be a 3rd space made. Boys, girls separate provision at adequate levels + third space as extra. Arguments against third spaces revolve around demanding personal validation from others by using the same sex provision, which is not any kind of legal right and can’t be insisted on. Anti-third-space arguments transparently do not reflect the wish to genuinely ‘just pee in peace’.

As as aside, I wonder why so many people are teaching their small boys to piss standing up, not sitting down as the default. Is it a chicken and egg situation because they know the usual state of boys toilets and so they don’t want their boys to sit on pissy seats so they teach them to wee standing up?

Jeanhatchet · 14/02/2019 06:43

I canvassed and assembled women's views and experiences on this here. It would be good to see someone gather and collate children's views similarly. Not sure how. jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2018/10/a-gentleman-in-ladies.html

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