Son says he wants to be a girl - supportive GC advice, please

[DoraBastable]

I am GC and encourage my kids to express themselves however they want, I don't impose gender norms and we openly talk about the gender binary and how stupid it is. My youngest son is 6 and has said off and on for a few years that he wants to be a girl. At times he has cried about it. I always explain to him that he can do all the things that girls can do - he can wear dresses and make up if he likes, or trousers and short hair, I give examples of all the different hobbies and jobs he can have, saying being a boy doesn't stop him from doing any of those things. He does wear nail varnish and colourful and pretty clothes when he wants to, but hasn't said he wants to wear skirts etc. He also has dolls to play with, loves dancing, loves babies and drawing and typical 'girl' stuff and this is encouraged and valued. Nobody ever tells him these things are wrong.

He says he still just wants to be a girl. When asked why, he can't explain, although he said once 'I want to be pretty like a girl'.

He is very young, and this is just a hunch, but I think he might be gay. My eldest son is gay. I think my 6 year old might also be on the autistic spectrum, although this doesn't cause him enough difficulties to push for a diagnosis. I know both of these things can encourage a belief that one is trans. In my more hopeful moments I can imagine him growing up to be a well-adjusted (possibly gay) man who likes being pretty and expressing himself in a feminine way. However I am scared as he gets older he will encounter trans ideology and get sucked into believing he 'is' a girl or can become a girl. How can I a) guard against this type of thing and b) comfort him in the meantime when he gets upset about being a boy?

Please don't try to convince me that I should be allowing him to believe he can become a girl. I'd love to hear from GC feminists who feel, as I do, that gender is a load of shit.

OP, as well as talking about how how bots and girls can all do the same stuff, it may also help to point out that girls can be "rough and tumble" and boys can be "gentle and caring"

As PPs have said it is an age where stereotypes really.come to the fore and you do start to get the stereotypical boys running around loudly with swords playfighting and girls sitting quietly doing "girls stuff".

He may not quite be able to express.that yet, but it may be that he feels happier in the company of girls as they are "nicer" and thinks he doesn't fit in with the boys because he doesn't enjoy, for example, play fighting.

aversion therapy
[aversion therapy]

NOUN
a type of behaviour therapy designed to make patients give up an undesirable habit by causing them to associate it with an unpleasant effect.

I'm not sure feminist4 understands what aversion therapy is. It's used to stop habits like nail-biting etc.

Might be getting confused with conversion therapy which "refers to the controversial and pseudoscientific practice of trying to change an individual's sexual orientation using psychological or spiritual" interventions."

I'd say we were all recommending the anti-therapy approach, tbh.

Let it be.

As has been related on previous posts, our experience was very different to F4s.

At 2, DD announced she was a boy. Not thought she was. She was.

She was not ASD, but had been very ill and her social skills were quite delayed. She is also very dyslexic.

She is 20 now, and trans wasn't a thing then, so we followed our instincts and let her be. We were clear she was a girl, but she played with boys, sat with boys at school, went to after school football schemes and boys parties, and wore boys clothes. The only argument was school uniform but we told her if she did not wear a dress she would have to stay in nursery.

Bar a couple of mums, she was largely accepted. She knew who she was and she was who she was, in the same way that the girls were quite happy to play with one of the boys. Indeed I think she was seen as a quirky interesting child. It started fading when she was about 8 and we started hearing the names of various girls who were suddenly BFF. But 11 her friendship group was entirely girls though she has always got on with boys and been happy to talk about sport etc. I don't know if her early socialisation has helped but she remains confident in a mixed environment.

To be honest we had more or less forgotten about it, and the period would have just been material for her dads speech at her wedding, until the whole trans thing started. She is the same age as Susie Green's child, and a few years older than Jazz. The idea of intervening in any way until a child is capable of making their own decisions seems grotesque, and gives me the shivers. Instead help build their self esteem and help them be happy with who they are.

If she had carried on insisting she was a boy, I think we would have just let her carry on, and assumed she was probably a lesbian. In any event outside activities and adult role models outside the gender norm (plenty of lesbians in womens' sport) were useful. It would be more difficult today with lots of people, even the school saying transgender. Indeed I wonder if Social Services might now take an interest. Ugggh.

dora

I think youve been given some good advice and ive nothing really to add

I think you are doing a great job under very trying circumstances, but letting him be him is the best way to deal with it at his age

I do also like the idea of offsetting the stereotypes of makeup and long hair equalling girl with lots of pictures of non conforming fabulous males and females

OP, have you heard of the Korean boy band BTS? My tween daughter and her friends are completely crazy about them - they’re absolutely huge right now. Anyway, the reason why I’m mentioning them is because they are seven very pretty boys. They often have candy-coloured hair, wear make up, and have soft, young features and hairless faces.

They are a great, very modern example of male prettiness, and they’re as far from the heavily tattooed 20-something beardy woke bros as it’s possible to be.

That’s a good idea Computer. Also see men such as Marc Bolan, David Bowie both beautiful men who made themselves look “pretty”.

I’m with you OP - I would say it’s very scary to be a parent to a GNC child right now, but fundamentally, at his age you are the most important influence in their life and you are in charge. I’m in touch with lots of GC parents and it’s much harder and very different with teenagers. I’m very sympathetic to parents like f4 because of course you want validation that your child is going to be ok and has made the right choices, but we all need to acknowledge that almost all children will grow out of this phase. Mine did.

I did much of the recommended stuff on this thread. I would definitely say the combination of both showing a lot of gender non conformity in your family really helps (if all influential males in the family could be involved in sharing enjoyment of “pretty” things with him rather than you) and also treating the situation very much as you would if he had decided to declare himself, eg, Spider-Man, is the most helpful. There are a few times I wished I’d bit my tongue on snapping out the whole “you can’t change sex you know!” rather than just smiling and saying “really darling?” the way I do about all other fantasy play. Just relax into it - you have a child who just doesn’t want to play by society’s rules and why the hell should he? What an amazing boy. Do keep checking in here and venting if you are worried as that really helps.

Both my sons are on the autistic spectrum and were very Gnc as children, they played with dolls, wore necklaces, grew their hair long wore pretty hair clips (not in school) and had only girls as friends. My younger son insisted he wasn't a boy. When they were young strangers would sometimes refer to them as my daughters I wasn't bothered and didn't tend to correct as people would get embarrassed about having got their sex wrong. There was no trans lobby then and I was happy to let them present themselves however they want and play with whatever toys they wanted they had a wide selection.

They grew out of it, as most children do. Both have grown up to be very comfortable in their bodies and who they are, and both describe themselves as heterosexual (I wonder if the older son might be slightly bi so encourage him to be open minded about experiences). Neither are even flamboyant in dress now (which I secretly think is a slight shame as my elder son is a scruff now). They still aren't interested in some stereotypical interests like football and are gentle caring men. They have no doubts they are men who can do and wear what they like.

I'm so thankful they grew up at a time where they weren't in danger of being told they had to pick which set of stereotypes to comply with and change their bodies to fit. I would be scared now.

I think my only advice Dora is keep doing what you're doing. If he asks about surgery explain what's involved in medical transition (as a good parent does about any elective surgery) and remind him medically it can only be an approximation as skeletal structure, fat and muscle distribution can't change. And keep encouraging the wait until he's older, if he becomes very keen on the idea of the surgery route you can always point out surgery improves over time so keep encouraging him to wait.

And check Stonewall aren't going into the school maybe talk to school about the alternative pack mentioned here.

Morning, everyone. Thanks for all your advice on this subject. We're sure the OP appreciates it.

While we can see the OP has asked for views on one particular side of the debate, we do think that on a public forum, voices on both sides of a debate should be welcome and we don't feel it would be right for us to delete posts that give another viewpoint. The OP is of course at liberty to take and leave any advice as she sees fit.

However, we would like to remind everyone posting here to be polite and civil and to bear in mind that the OP is a real person asking for advice about her real child. So please do post with that in mind and be as polite and supportive as you would if you were talking to her face to face. We will delete any posts that we don't feel are posted in that spirit of support.

Thanks, everyone.

The advice about K-pop is excellent! Love it.

(Can I also make a small plea to people not to be goaded into making this thread about someone else, however tempting?)

Nick Rhodes (from Duran duran) is another example of a very pretty man who ignored gender stereotyping. Check out his wedding photos.

as the mother of an ASD boy (18) I would push for assesssment- it often on.y becomes socially problematic later on (11 plus) so better to get ahead of the curve if you can, rather than having to be reactionary when problems happen.

I have no experience re: trans questioning, but I would try and find a range of inspiring people for your DS to look up to - if he is interested in make up, then letting him now that it is a valid career option and showing him men like Jeffrey Star and John McClean (both on YouTube) might help him realise he can be pretty ‘like a girl’ but also be a boy?

Thanks so much everybody. I don't have time to reply to each person individually at the moment, but I really appreciate all the different viewpoints. I did ask not to be told 'He is trans, deal with it,' but the many supportive voices outweighed that message and I can see why MN have allowed people on both sides of the debate to speak.

Feminist4, we do know a trans child who has detransitioned. It's quite common.

So many useful ideas to think about. He does mostly have friends who are girls and it was thinking about this last night that actually brought me to post as that worries me too. Boys his age seem to like him but he tells me they annoy him. However he does love playing with older boys and does really love some typical boy stuff such as play fighting and weapons, etc, and likes superhero toys as well as dolls. I find it all a bit confusing tbh.

I like the idea of encouraging GNC role models and I think we already do that to some extent - we're Bowie and Bolan fans and also like the band Years & Years who have a very out gay man fronting them.

I will also think about the idea of just accepting it as I would any other fantasy play. It's true, if he said, "I want to be Batman," I would just say "Hey, that's cool. why not dress up and be Batman today?" But something about pretending to be a girl makes me uncomfortable. 1) What would pretending to be a girl mean? Putting on a dress? I'm fine with him wearing dresses, but as a GC woman the idea that putting on a dress and make up makes you a girl abhorrent. 2) Encouraging the idea that you can 'become' a girl by dressing up as one is exactly what I want to avoid. So I'm not sure I can go along with pretend play of being a girl. I'll have to think more about it.

Thanks all for your thoughts and also your support. I feared I might be laughed at and told not to worry, so to have this taken seriously was a big help.

So I'm not sure I can go along with pretend play of being a girl

I don't think you need to steer him one way or the other but if during normal play he wants to be catwoman rather than batman, I can't see the problem. I certainly always dressed up as a male during pretend play when I was a child. In my day it was still cowboys and indians and I spent many hours with my cap guns rescuing the poor helpless squaws who were about to be burnt alive.

DoraBastable

There's an interview with a father discussing his son's transgender identity which may be of interest

Transgender Trend:
"We think Simon’s testimony will be really useful for other parents and we are very grateful to him for writing it and for allowing us to publish it here.

How old was your son when he ‘came out’ as trans and is there anything that you think led to it – events in his life, influences etc? Is there anything you think made your son particularly susceptible to the idea that he may be trans – for example, personality, underlying mental/emotional health issues or sexual orientation etc?

My son was 14 and a half when he told my wife in early 2017 that he wanted to live life as a girl, and that he wanted to go see a doctor and start the transitioning process. He also said he wanted to change his name.

We believe that there were multiple factors that led him to that point:

We had recently moved to a new area so he was separated from his friends
His body had changed from that of a boy to a young man in a very short time, starting young, when he was about eleven years old. We believe this rapid change in his body gave him anxiety. For example, he hated his body hair and would shave it all off. He wouldn’t wear shorts, even in hot weather, because of the hair on his legs.
He had been exposed to positive transgender videos on YouTube (social contagion)
Lack of social stigma
The final two points cannot be underestimated. There are a significant number of trans activists on YouTube, some of whom have nonsensical gender ideas, yet most parents don’t monitor YouTube use. Also, a recent newspaper article that said many children are not afraid to declare themselves trans, as it is seen as being ‘cool’ by other kids. This matched our experience. Our son had already told all of his friends he was trans, and they didn’t seem to care.

Had you suspected anything or were you taken by surprise when your son announced he was trans and how did you react to it?

We were completely taken by surprise. He told my wife first, and she spent time for the first couple of weeks talking to him and reassuring him. I decided I would not talk to him about it until after I had found out more information, so for about two-three weeks I read everything I could, including transgendertrend.com and other sites, which were a great help." (continues)

concludes:
"It’s all a bit strange. We have a boy, who looks and talks like a boy. There’s nothing effeminate about him. He doesn’t identify with transgender issues. Yet there’s something in him that thinks he might be better off as a girl. I still think that the longer we wait – and the more he becomes an adult – the more he will realise it’s not really a good idea.

Anything else you feel is relevant? And what would your advice be to other parents who find themselves in your position?

Read and watch as much as you can before you have an in-depth chat with your child.
Don’t use what you’ve learned to push your agenda on them. Just listen and try to understand where your child is coming from.
Try not to get in a confrontation with your child: they have come to where they are through their own logic. Their decision makes sense to them and pushing against it could simply make them more entrenched. Instead, work with them to find out how they got to this decision and work slowly with them over time, so they can see that their proposed solution is just one of many potential paths forward.
Reach out to other parents who have gone through this issue.
Go slowly. Delay where possible. As your child matures, their understanding may change.
Don’t be put off by politically-correct pressure. Your child is under your care and is not the property of activists.
Avoid the NHS, transgender clinics, activists at all costs. They will all push you towards the ‘transgender pipeline’.
Find a therapist who will help to find any underlying issues.
Obviously, if there are underlying issues, try to resolve them.
Don’t be afraid to send your child articles and news clippings to discuss (with their permission)."
www.transgendertrend.com/dad-boy-identifies-transgender/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410239-Being-The-Dad-Of-A-Boy-Who-Identifies-As-Transgender-article

Your child is under your care and is not the property of activists.

This, is so true.
White coats don't make experts.

If your child is transgender, they will be a transgender adult, there is no need to be pressured to push anything onto or into them as a child.

If your child is transgender, they will be a transgender adult, there is no need to be pressured to push anything onto or into them as a child.

We don't encourage children to make important and irreversible decisions in any other area, so why do it here? Let them grow up first and make up their own minds when they're mature enough to understand all the consequences.

I often think about the phrase. "you can't put an old head on young shoulders"

We have the theory and memories but memory is a funny thing and exists (for me) almost like photographs. The emotions of that particular long ago time are largely gone

For me that is the crux of what is wrong with the way trans ideology is being peddled to minors, the advocates think that children are mini adults, they are not, they are children! They do not have adult understanding, motivations or desires but see the world in a totally different way. Kids believe in crazy things like magic, Father Christmas, mermaids or that dinosaurs walked the earth when I was a child. The vast majority of those pushing to trans kids are childless men who have no bloody idea other than fuzzy memories from their own childhood (which often seem extremely dysfunctional) Why is nobody taking any notice of those who do have direct experience e.g Mums or those that work with children?

At six he is a bit too young to be making such big decisions. You're saying the right things atm but tell him he has to be older before any big changes are made. He might have changed his mind by then, especially when puberty hits. Try to get him to think about other things and enjoy being as he is at the moment.

It's very fashionable for young children to want to be the opposite sex at the moment but they have little idea what it entails.

Maybe check what transgender resources the school are using, if any.
10,000 Dresses has been repeatedly read in our school inc to reception children.

It's very fashionable for young children to want to be the opposite sex at the moment but they have little idea what it entails.

And quite often they have no idea that it's not possible to change sex. Especially with the likes of GIRES producing 'teaching' materials which tell them that they can.

I'm just looking at a birthday present for my six year old grandchild - and guess what, it only comes in pink or blue. Which puts people like the OP in an awkward position - do they buy a feminine boy the girlie pink one, because he'd probably prefer it, but then run the risk of him getting teased? Do I buy my granddaughter the blue one as a matter of principle, when I know she'd prefer the pink one?

Reintroducing gender-neutral colours would be a big help for all children, particularly GNC ones.

However he does love playing with older boys and does really love some typical boy stuff such as play fighting and weapons, etc, and likes superhero toys as well as dolls. I find it all a bit confusing tbh.

I can see where you're coming from but it's kind of crazy that this is confusing these days. Child plays all sorts of different games. Child likes wearing a variety of clothes. Would not have been remotely confusing when I was growing up.

The only problematic thing is that child seems to have got hold of the idea that he can only play certain games/wear certain looks if he "is a girl". Which current madness aside we'd normally just treat by saying nah you've got the wrong end of the stick, anyone can play with/wear anything, aren't those kids saying you can't silly.

I've noticed that we hear much less of very young girls insisting they are boys, probably because there isn't nearly the social stigma attached to girls crossing stereotypes - though DD did still get told "you're a boy" at preschool when she cut her hair short.

If the lad turns out to have gender dysphoria at an age where he's actually got an understanding of gender aside from stereotypes, plenty of time to discuss it then. He's just a kid playing at the moment.

I see what you mean OP about "girl" not really being something you can dress up as. Perhaps you could ask him which girl? Does he want to be Nicola Adams, Florence Nightingale or Princess Elsa?