Can transsexuals truly be allies to women?

[Hamster00]

Last night in bed, between my brain deciding to torment me with "what are baby llama called?" and, "what time is your dentist appointment next week?", I ended up regurgitating "that thread" from yesterday. That thread in which I was called an ally a couple of times by other members.

As I stared at the ceiling, I started indulging in a bit of mental self-flagellation which raised more questions than I had answers for such as:

Transsexuals have no real "movement" insofar as creating our own spaces. Are we as "allies" just piggybacking the larger feminist movement to achieve our mutually but not exclusive goals? Surely that's just another way of exploiting women? Aren't we just really just joining another group to protect our own rights? Is our relationship parasitic rather than symbiotic?

MtF transsexuals are still biologically male, have male socialisation and thus the innate potential propensity towards violence. Surely we still a threat to women even after a surgical/medical outcome?

Can we truly empathise with women having never been one? We have no shared experience of women's lived experience/trauma.

Whilst we can be GC, can we truly call ourselves feminists? Can men be feminists? Is a man calling themself a feminist appropriation too?

I'm not trying to be contentious but inviting perspectives so I can try and organise some of this in my head a little bit better. I think many people know my feelings all to well in relation to self-ID, single sex spaces and TRA appropriation etc - but is that actually being an "ally" - or just someone who shares the same set of ideas....

identify with but not as a woman?
Support women’s rights to sex based provisions and services?
Thoughtful human being who isn’t hell bent on driving women into submission?

A yes to all of those and you’re fine ;)

A baby llama is a cria (same as a baby alpaca) I think.
I personally don’t like the word ally but I know what you mean.

I didn't read the other thread (don't know which one you mean) but I'm heartened by you aski so e of the questions

In my mind a transsexual is not a true ally to feminism if

• they position themselves as more rational than women (Ala Kinesis)
• they are not an ally if they are using feminists to protect themselves
• they are not an ally if they keep getting a voice in the media because they are trans (and so still seen as male) and they keep taking those opportunities without ever elevating women's voices
• they are not an ally if they are still married to a woman and their wife's voice is almost never heard
• they are not an ally if they are performing a sexist version of femininity rather than being themselves
• they are not an ally if they are using women's spaces like toilets and changing rooms

Feminist being nice to a transsexual does not make them an ally
I'm sure I missed a few

A lot of ‘good feminist/bad feminist’ in being bandied around at the moment, often by new posters or within the LibDems. You apparently can’t be a good feminist if you don’t support the TRA agenda, if you use certain speaking platforms in the US (even if no others are offered..and the end result is a a some people on the left also starting to think) and so on. Feminist is harder to define than ‘woman’ so a word that is misappropriated more easily.

I don’t think there is a feminist movement on this. There are feminist groups, some more left leaning and political than others. But this is about societal change. It affects everyone. Yes ‘feminists’ may have put their heads above the parapet first, but transsexuals have a lot to offer to offer in terms of insights based on lived experience. But there are going to be lots of people yelling ‘cheat’ if a MtF win gold in Tokyo and I have no doubt my builder would protest if his daughter was expected to share a tent with a teenage boy at a GG camp.

This board is brilliant for sharing information, ideas and support. But misnamed as ‘feminist chat’. No hive mind, no single purpose, just people who share wider concern about self ID and about the medicalisation of children.

I don't think it's necessary to be the same as another person to form a mutually supportive relationship. I don't like men calling themselves feminists (I know there's tons of disagreement about this), but a male person can support women without claiming the term for himself.

I think transsexuals need their own movement that's entirely separate from what TRAs are doing. That doesn't mean they can't still be supportive of feminists, or that the two movements can't potentially work together on some things.

I think it is important to realise that gender-critical transsexuals often are motivated to some extent by self-interest, but so are most gender-critical women. I'm not so interested in the concept of 'allies' or ideological purity. I want to stop sex self-identity, not spend aeons debating it. So I am supportive of anyone who is working to improve awareness of the self-identity proposals, their potential impact and help stop its implementation.

I like the term "friend to" better than ally. So, I'd say Miranda Yardley is a friend to women, and so is Glinner. I may not always agree with them, but I always get the sense that they see women as people and care about what we have to say. There are some purportedly GC transsexuals who I'm less convinced meet either of the above criteria.

Ally is one of those things where I think ‘well I don’t wish that group/cause any harm, and would support equal rights/for them to achieve their goal,’ so I’m an ally to pretty much anything legal/positive. It’s a pointless term, only useful for virtue signaling. So yes, transsexuals can be allies to women, in as much as they don’t hate us and are in favour of maintaining/strengthening sex based protections. I’m automatically suspicious of anyone who calls themselves an ally to anything/one though, as it’s ultimately a selfish title, and by stating ‘I’m an ally to’ should just be stating the obvious if you’re a decent human being, and takes the emphasis off the cause/group and puts it onto the so-called ally.

I hate that we’ve got to the point where it has to be stated that we’re allied to anything. It says to me that the default position is ignorance/not giving a shit, and that’s just sad.

Ally is one of those things where I think ‘well I don’t wish that group/cause any harm, and would support equal rights/for them to achieve their goal,’ so I’m an ally to pretty much anything legal/positive.

I think half of my problem is the semantics too. Kittens using the word "friend" makes a lot more sense to me. I don't know what it was about being called an "ally" yesterday - it grated on me a little yesterday and opened up this can of worms.

I think transsexuals need their own movement that's entirely separate from what TRAs are doing. That doesn't mean they can't still be supportive of feminists, or that the two movements can't potentially work together on some things.

^^This! But I can't stop think wondering about how much IS about self-interest, and at what point does mutual support become potentially one sided and ending up reverting back to male patterns of behaviour.

Miranda is the only one I can think of.

Most 'GC' transexuals besides him are using their GC credentials to buy compromises and negotiate away some part of women's consent, and their position is simply 'I'm so much less demanding than the others, so I'd settle for me if I were you'.

Ultimately, if you are a TS arguing that
-surgery/hormones makes you more committed and deserving of being awarded honorary womanhood

• TS are less harmful than 'the others'
• women who don't use female pronouns for you are unkind/not civil/ discourteous
• a female mind exists

then you're really no different from all the other men, sitting around arguing with each other about what women are, who gets to be one, what rights we are entitled, and which men we should and shouldn't be allowed to say no to.

Every GC TS I've spoken to expects me to sacrifice my own and my daughter's rights, boundaries and consent in some way for his
own benefit, usually because they see our rights as theirs to negotiate away, and because they feel I owe them.

It's incomprehensible to them to view the situation thus:

Here are females. I am male. I will not expect or plead for any concessions from them. They have an unassailable right to distinguish themselves from me, and I will not make their lives worse by requiring them to perpetually justify this, or reassert and defend that right repeatedly because of me.

I like the term "friend to" better than ally. So, I'd say Miranda Yardley is a friend to women, and so is Glinner. I may not always agree with them, but I always get the sense that they see women as people and care about what we have to say. There are some purportedly GC transsexuals who I'm less convinced meet either of the above criteria.

This.

I think 'friend of' is useful, and also reminds us that friends do sometimes disagree, but essentially have enough love and respect to still have a strong and supportive relationship and have each other's backs on the important things.

Hamster - it's possible but there is a very fine line between actually supporting women and their needs and effectively working towards gate keeping that includes TS but excludes TG, which essentially is a pro-self, not a pro-woman, agenda.

But I think you know that and that's why you've posted. Amirite?

So good to see you posting again. I always like the cut of your jib.

Thanks Barracker, that perspective definitely helps organise a lot of my questions. My brain couldn't quite get there, but I absolutely agree.

Lang I think so, but I think it goes beyond that - and past the self-ID / single sex issues...

The word 'ally' grates on me like fingernails down a blackboard too. 'Friend to' makes far more sense. But then the whole 'everyone must be forcibly stuffed into a named pack/category at all times, and must virtuously believe in all the things that pack label lists (whether or not they actually agree with them)' pisses me right off too. So bloody childish.

What are baby llama called?

but I think it goes beyond that - and past the self-ID / single sex issues

Yes, you're probably right there.

See, I'd have just called them "llama", or possibly have expressed my feelings via a ridiculous "aw!" noise.

And this is why we don't ask me to name things for us as a collective.

It's Cria - thanks Babel and Google.

I think RoseofDawn is great. Her videos about Jess Bradley show insight, persistency and courage. She does not claim to be GC, and I am sure there are many many areas on which we will disagree. However I would listen, and then agree to disagree.

Ally, friend..neither. Just someone who comes across as an honest individual.

'Friend to' makes me cringe. Can't really articulate why but I think it sounds baby-ish and silly.

As to whether they can be an ally or not, not if they want to present a parody of women to the world, no.

Interesting thread.

I’m not a massive fan of the term ‘ally’ just find it a bit wanky.

I also think Feminism is for females.

I don’t like all the splits and in fighting. There’s an awful lot of women I’ve listened to over the years (and a few transsexuals) and I’ve learnt a lot. Ultimately I think everybody needs to listen and learn about their rights and then represent their own views to their elected representatives and any services they are using that are undermining rights, especially schools.

Long term I would like to see gender stereotypes broken down to a big enough extent that there are no ‘trans’ people there are just people. I know that will be interpreted as wanting to deny trans people the right to exist, but it isn’t. I would like differences between sexes acknowledged and segregation upheld where necessary, but I don’t want any child growing up thinking they were born in the wrong body because they don’t want to conform to societal gender stereotypes.

I think existing transsexuals need their own movement, but they’re a tiny group, only 1-2% of the whole trans movement. I’m very annoyed that twitter shut down TSvoices.

I think ultimately hamster you are you and should defend your own rights while being careful not to impinge on others.

I will defend mine and my daughters rights while trying hard not to make the lives of anyone with gender dysphoria even more difficult.

I think all decent human beings who care about the rights of others and respecting diverse viewpoints and freedom of speech should stand together.

And Cria is going to be my fact of the day

I agree with Barracker post.

I think some TS have jumped onto self id, assuming that that's the problem and if that's stopped, everything will be ok. But it's not, the problem is women and girls not allowed to define themselves and not being allowed any space to themselves. Male TS are as much of a problem as male TG people if they don't see that.

Also Hamster I’m sorry for all the transallyplaining you’re being subjected to on the other thread. It is coming across as a particularly offensive form of ‘mansplaining’ and is giving me the rage.

I like the term "friend to" better than ally. So, I'd say Miranda Yardley is a friend to women, and so is Glinner. I may not always agree with them, but I always get the sense that they see women as people and care about what we have to say. There are some purportedly GC transsexuals who I'm less convinced meet either of the above criteria.

Agree 100%