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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can transsexuals truly be allies to women?

107 replies

Hamster00 · 06/02/2019 08:38

Last night in bed, between my brain deciding to torment me with "what are baby llama called?" and, "what time is your dentist appointment next week?", I ended up regurgitating "that thread" from yesterday. That thread in which I was called an ally a couple of times by other members.

As I stared at the ceiling, I started indulging in a bit of mental self-flagellation which raised more questions than I had answers for such as:

Transsexuals have no real "movement" insofar as creating our own spaces. Are we as "allies" just piggybacking the larger feminist movement to achieve our mutually but not exclusive goals? Surely that's just another way of exploiting women? Aren't we just really just joining another group to protect our own rights? Is our relationship parasitic rather than symbiotic?

MtF transsexuals are still biologically male, have male socialisation and thus the innate potential propensity towards violence. Surely we still a threat to women even after a surgical/medical outcome?

Can we truly empathise with women having never been one? We have no shared experience of women's lived experience/trauma.

Whilst we can be GC, can we truly call ourselves feminists? Can men be feminists? Is a man calling themself a feminist appropriation too?

I'm not trying to be contentious but inviting perspectives so I can try and organise some of this in my head a little bit better. I think many people know my feelings all to well in relation to self-ID, single sex spaces and TRA appropriation etc - but is that actually being an "ally" - or just someone who shares the same set of ideas....

OP posts:
LangCleg · 06/02/2019 11:44

Fundamentally, the very notion of 'trans', whether transsexual or transgender, is antithetical to feminism, and therefore harmful to women and girls

Agree if we're talking the current definition of "trans".

But is there a world in which "trans" comes to mean "unusual member of one's birth sex"? And anti-discrimination measures are centred around that?

Because I wouldn't mind that world at all.

AngryAttackKittens · 06/02/2019 11:47

Me neither, Lang. Unfortunately many societies seem to be heading at full speed in the opposite direction.

(Though the Anglosphere and the Spanish diaspora countries are heading there fastest, and it might be interesting to figure out why.)

LangCleg · 06/02/2019 11:51

As to terminology. I think there's a point here about "identifying" - the ever-present beast of the early twenty-first century.

Men can hold feminist beliefs. Of course they can. The issues come when they want to take on an identity related to those beliefs - ally, feminist, whatever.

If we all stopped identifying or trying to identify, and just had opinions and beliefs, that would be better!

Badstyley · 06/02/2019 11:52

Is it realistic though to expect a cure for GD? Therapy must be of some use, and possibly psychiatric medicine, but the fact that someone has decided that surgical intervention can be done so therefore should be, is, from an ethical pov at least, debatable. I mean surely the fact that one can resemble the opposite sex as far as possible doesn’t actually cure the desire toactually be the opposite sex? For other psychiatric conditions, Bipolar for eg, there’s nothing that can be changed about the body that can be altered in order to resemble a person who doesn’t have Bipolar, so we have to focus our efforts on staying well in other ways, so what is different about GD? Also I know that one method of treatment can work quite well for a long time, but then for seemingly no reason it can stop working. Is this the same for SRS? Can it be great for a few years, but then symptoms reappear and cause problems again? I can come off one med if this happens, and go on another, or none at all, but surgical adjustments can’t be undone, and can that be a source of distress in itself, causing other symptoms to be exacerbated?

Also, and you can probably answer this Hamster is there ongoing MH support for people who have had SRS? The way it works for me is that I will be under the care of the MH team, where hopefully I can get the right help to become stable after an episode, then when I’ve been stable a while I’ll be discharged. If I subsequently become unwell again I can either go to my GP, who will refer me back, or if it’s within a year of my last discharge from MH, I can go straight back to them. Do the same sorts of procedures apply for GD or do you just get the op, get support for a bit after that, then just get left to get on with it as if you’re cured?

I’m just wondering, because I don’t know, so forgive my ignorance that’s why I’m asking, Is it that SRS is seen as a final cure for GD, or is it part of a life long treatment framework?

Sorry for the mahusive derail. It’s probably for a new thread but it kind of came up here. Do feel free to ignore.

Oh and please forgive spelling. I’m crap at spelling for reasons, which I shan’t go into.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 06/02/2019 12:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 06/02/2019 12:12

The GC position is broadly speaking, all choices around personal appearance, hobbies, possessions, names, colours, all the rest of it, is fully available to men or women.

Sex is something you're born with, it cannot change, but each sex has a very wide range of people with a very wide range of choices over appearance and preferences. None of which are an indicator of their sex.

Adults are free to make any surgical interventions to their body to any extent and to any appearance that they like and if this helps their MH that's great. However a body, no matter how surgically altered to look like another sex, does not change sex.

The debate is where and at what point someone of one sex should be counted as now of the opposite sex - when they take on a full or a partial outward appearance via hormones or surgery? when they embrace particular appearances and choices? when they simply state their preference of which sex they wish to be counted as regardless of fact? The hard fact is that they cannot change sex, and to count someone of the male sex as being legally or in any other way a woman is in itself harmful to biological women in many ways.

The legal fiction of being a woman being created and this crossing of the line made possible was what started this mess.

Hamster00 · 06/02/2019 12:15

Also, and you can probably answer this Hamster is there ongoing MH support for people who have had SRS?

I can only speak for myself but there are a couple of follow-up appointments then you're "released back into the wild" with the caveat that "we're here if you need us". So yes, GRS is the end point in the process.

If we all stopped identifying or trying to identify, and just had opinions and beliefs, that would be better!

This - a thousand times this!

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 12:35

I've just shared this article on another thread but it is worth considering the difference in response of both NHS and charities concerned for people with Body Dysmorphic Disorder and the damgers of incresing availability of 'affirmative' medical interventions:

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jan/19/superdrugs-tightens-mental-health-checks-on-botox-customers

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 06/02/2019 12:55

The legal fiction of being a woman being created and this crossing of the line made possible was what started this mess.

It was. And now we are in a position where we are forcing others to believe something that isn't true, often to their disadvantaged. When police are contacting people to inform them they are thinking the wrong things, something is badly wrong with the ideology.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 13:06

I saw this comment by Ray Blanchard recently and have been thinking for some time about that gatekeeping 'test' of 'living in gender role for two years'

As the vast majority of people presenting to the early proponants of medical 'sex change' surgery were males, I have often wondered how much sexism/misogyny was involved in the male doctors requirement for males to perform female sex-based stereotypes, access female single-sex spaces etc.

It also seems a rather unusual diagnostic tool. Rather than supportively unpicking the potential issues driving an individual's drive to be/be seen as the opposite sex, it just establishes that this is powerful and ongoing whilst promoting the requirement that society validates this.

Can transsexuals truly be allies to women?
Datun · 06/02/2019 13:07

I have often wondered how people like Miranda can so comprehensively understand the gender critical viewpoint, whilst remaining trans.

I guess it's like a lot of issues to do with one's psyche. You know it doesn't make sense, but you can't stop it anyway.

And if certain beliefs/attitudes were ingrained at a young age, that's even harder to dispense with.

Hamster00, this is a loaded question, so feel free not to answer it.

During the time you have been thinking about gender critical issues, has your gender dysphoria lessened as a result? Was there a point at which you saw it through a different, patriarchally enforced lens, which might make it easier to reject?

Datun · 06/02/2019 13:10

I have often wondered how much sexism/misogyny was involved in the male doctors requirement for males to perform female sex-based stereotypes, access female single-sex spaces etc.

Yes absolutely.

I would like those roles and behaviours described. They simply wouldn't hold up without sexism dripping off every word.

Calvinsmam · 06/02/2019 13:13

I have an eating disorder.

I can understand fully that my disorder comes from societal pressures for me to look a certain way and the way society values women’s bodies. I also understand that continuing to diet and exercise in the way I do it perpetuates the myth that this is the way women’s bodies look and by not embracing the way my body naturally looks I’m making it harder for other women.

Doesn’t make my eating disorder go away though.

I assume this is similar to how it feels to be a GC trans person.

Datun · 06/02/2019 13:37

I assume this is similar to how it feels to be a GC trans person.

Yes, that's how I would imagine it, to be honest.

But Miranda spends an incredible amount of time actively campaigning on behalf of the gender critical viewpoint.

I wondered if immersing himself in something so diametrically opposed to his own psyche has changed his outlook.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 13:40

I would like those roles and behaviours described. They simply wouldn't hold up without sexism dripping off every word.

Absolutely, its also the case that whilst those male doctors describe providing a 'gatekeeping' to surgery for males who wish to 'transition', it strikes me that they are also acting as gatekeepers to female spaces, services etc.
A male patient told by a male doctor to 'go and live in role' and provide proof is basically being told to go and access women's spaces. Who granted these male doctors the right to this?

('God complex' is also often seen as a male-pattern concerned with surgeon's power)

mirandayardley · 06/02/2019 13:45

I have no contradictions. I know I’m a man.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 13:46

The doctors who described some forms of sugery as 'sex-change' have played a substantial part in the current confusions and issues.

Humans can't change sex. All doctors know this.

(I've also wondered about the underlying homphobia of the medical pioneers)

Hamster00 · 06/02/2019 13:53

*Hamster00, this is a loaded question, so feel free not to answer it.

During the time you have been thinking about gender critical issues, has your gender dysphoria lessened as a result?*

In short no - there's been no change. Medical intervention and drugs have alleviated the dysphoria to a significant effect and allowed me much improved mental health (although it's still there). However thinking about GC issues has made me uncomfortable in other ways - that in relieving that dysphoria I am now part of a larger problem I hadn't contemplated before.

Was there a point at which you saw it through a different, patriarchally enforced lens, which might make it easier to reject?

I dont think you can actually "reject" GD insofar as I feel in part GD is an extreme form of body dysmorphia - coupled with a whole slew of other factors.

I'm starting to see the patriarchal enforcement of the treatment process and the way being "trans" relates to women but I'm still trying to work it all out in my own head.

Uugh this is difficult to vocalise.... REALLY difficult.... and it's probably come out horribly wrong.

OP posts:
Datun · 06/02/2019 14:00

Uugh this is difficult to vocalise.... REALLY difficult.... and it's probably come out horribly wrong.

Not at all. I have no trouble understanding that one can accept something intellectually, whilst disbelieving it emotionally.

It's just that the gender critical viewpoint maintains that the causes of gender dysphoria are rooted in sexism. And therefore the natural extension of that would be if one rejects sexism, the gender dysphoria would go along with it.

I realise that's a very simplified view. Which is why am asking.

Miranda, yes I know you say you're a man. It's more to do with speculation as to how gender dysphoria starts, to me.

NeurotrashWarrior · 06/02/2019 14:10

Placemarking. V important thread. Doubt I'll be able to add much of any value mind you!

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/02/2019 14:10

It's just that the gender critical viewpoint maintains that the causes of gender dysphoria are rooted in sexism. And therefore the natural extension of that would be if one rejects sexism, the gender dysphoria would go along with it.

Just thinking aloud, but sexism seen/believed individually and sexism as imposed on the individual by society are different.

So a young girl might know, absolutely that she is the equal of a man, and that society should t treat her as lesser, but society still does. Amd she may know that she can be gender non conforming butcstill be a woman and yet society still imposes that she’s ‘wrong’ .

And so she may know one thing, but feel another. The logical lens we see life through doesn’t always correspond to the emotional one.

Hamster00 · 06/02/2019 14:11

Datun - I think that's why I tried to split the first part in two halves. One in respect of the sensation of dysphoria from then to now as a sense of self - but also that feeling of discomfort that essentially I've been part of the problem.

I'll readily admit I'm not quite there with sorting all the facets out in my head though, if that makes sense - and that's why I wasn't frightened of dodging your loaded question.

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 06/02/2019 14:12

So yeah it is a headfuck.... ThanksThanksThanks

FloralBunting · 06/02/2019 14:12

Hamster, i think this is why saying Gender Dysphoria is not a mental health is in the end, hugely damaging. The way you deal with mental health issues can vary - some need medical intervention, others need different kinds of therapy, and there are varying degrees of peace to be found in the midst of all sorts of MH difficulties.

The one thing that consistently doesn't help someone with a MH issue is pretending it doesn't exist. You genuinely have my every good wish and I would not for a second minimize your mental distress. Personally, I would find it exacerbating in the extreme if someone told me my MH issues were actually a beautiful part of how I was meant to be and weren't MH issues at all but something to be celebrated.

MH stuff is getting talked about more openly, and people are accepted and that a good thing, but no one ever suggests we should celebrate depression or bipolar etc.

BettyDuMonde · 06/02/2019 14:33

is the medical profession culpable

I’m starting to think so. Originally it was just a few trailblazing ‘sexologists’ and some spectacularly narcissistic surgeons, taking the ‘playing god’ trope to the max, experimenting on (mostly vulnerable) non-comforming people. 70 years on and something very niche and previously, largely private, has exploded, causing all kinds of unintended damage, both to the GNC people themselves, and to the wider cultures (with women and girls on the sharp end of the stick, as always, because: patriarchy).

I also hate the word ally. In war, an ally on one battleground is an enemy on another. Friend is much more appropriate. Sometimes friends fall out because their self-interests don’t line up - they reconcile by listening to each other’s viewpoints and if mutual agreement can not be reached, they at least try to understand each other’s viewpoints.

I did laugh (albeit it hollowly) at Hamster having their own experiences talked over by woker-than-woke trans-ally types, preferring to parrot the ‘born in the wrong body’ myth, rather than actually hear a first hand description of living with gender dysphoria - not at your expense though, H, just at the stupidity of the situation.

Anyway, trans people (‘truscum’ or otherwise) are not obliged to be allies to women, just as women are not obliged to be allies to transpeople. In an ideal world everyone has a proportional seat at the decision making table, but women haven’t yet achieved 50% political representation, so expecting one of our seats (via all women shortlists, for example) is entitled-bollocks. Pull up your own chairs (and bring extra gin).

As a wider, philosophical point, yes, I think simply being a trans identified male undermines the goals of feminism (freedom from the sex based stereotypes that uphold male supremacy) just as being a choosy-choice-empowered-pole-dancer does. Neither are good for women as a class.

However, I recognise that power structure that is convincing the current generation of young western women that posting selfies in your pants on instagram is empowering and injecting poison in your face is being the best version of yourself has also done a number on many male born trans identifying people.
That doesn’t mean we are fighting on the same side, but it does mean we potentially have a common enemy.

That said, we all need the oppressive fog to clear enough that proper evidence based research into the causes of gender dysphoria can resume. I refuse to believe that the reasons for teenage autistic female people to identify as ‘trans’ are the same reasons that cause middle aged, married, fathers to ‘come out’.

Not all transpeople are friends to women (look at the transwidows threads!) but transactivism insists on lumping everyone together. Thus, sticking up for a female friend who is struggling through an acrimonious divorce = transphobic. Calling Jacinta Books a Male sex offender = transphobic. Saying you want young trans-questioning women to be treated cautiously and not immediately sent down a pathway that leads to sterility = transphobic.
Seems to me that resisting the patriarchy = transphobic.

Anyway, the easy litmus test for adult male born transpeople is to ask them what sex segregated services they use. Sticking to the mens or avoiding segregated spaces in favour of mixed sex spaces is a pretty good indicator that they respect the rights of women and girls.

I admire Miranda Yardley’s work on this, convincing trans people it’s the morally right thing to do, one person at a time (the lovely Fionne being a great example).

The Stonewall umbrella is a massive problem and it’s fucking over the most vulnerable LGBT people. It makes me really fucking sad.