Can transsexuals truly be allies to women?

[Hamster00]

Last night in bed, between my brain deciding to torment me with "what are baby llama called?" and, "what time is your dentist appointment next week?", I ended up regurgitating "that thread" from yesterday. That thread in which I was called an ally a couple of times by other members.

As I stared at the ceiling, I started indulging in a bit of mental self-flagellation which raised more questions than I had answers for such as:

Transsexuals have no real "movement" insofar as creating our own spaces. Are we as "allies" just piggybacking the larger feminist movement to achieve our mutually but not exclusive goals? Surely that's just another way of exploiting women? Aren't we just really just joining another group to protect our own rights? Is our relationship parasitic rather than symbiotic?

MtF transsexuals are still biologically male, have male socialisation and thus the innate potential propensity towards violence. Surely we still a threat to women even after a surgical/medical outcome?

Can we truly empathise with women having never been one? We have no shared experience of women's lived experience/trauma.

Whilst we can be GC, can we truly call ourselves feminists? Can men be feminists? Is a man calling themself a feminist appropriation too?

I'm not trying to be contentious but inviting perspectives so I can try and organise some of this in my head a little bit better. I think many people know my feelings all to well in relation to self-ID, single sex spaces and TRA appropriation etc - but is that actually being an "ally" - or just someone who shares the same set of ideas....

I hate the term 'ally'.

We have no shared experience of women's lived experience/trauma.

Thankfully it isn't necessary to share somebody's experience to understand their argument or point of view.

Some of them appear lost and alone and are looking for somewhere to belong to. However having found a tribe it seems to make them angry, unhappy and chasing a physical ideal they will never be able to meet.

This is important, I think. I remember my finding my tribe experience in adolescence. It made me happy. Didn't like or agree with everyone in that tribe and didn't expect to, but overall it was a positive experience that made my life happier.

With young people who join the trans tribe there seems to be an initial period of euphoria followed by rapidly escalating anger, paranoia, and unhappiness. There also seems to be a real fear of disagreement, which isn't surprising when you've seen what happens to people who do disagree.

If you think you've found your tribe and then find that being part of it makes your life less happy, and you're afraid of what the other members will do to you if you disagree with them, that's not a tribe (read - subculture), that's a cult, in my opinion.

And I think that's where a lot of the anger for women comes in. The disconnect between what men think of women, why they think it, and then how they subvert it for their own ends, whilst maintaining that's what women are.

And the thing is that all women can feel it, that anger, and how quickly it appears when we do anything to remind the person of how poorly their concept of woman matches our experience of being women. I think the handmaidens feel it too, and are just responding to the fear it causes in maladaptive ways.

Hamster, does this not depend on what this is all about.

If my understanding is that trans people, like homosexuals before them, want societal change and acceptance, then this has to come out partly by negotiation. And takes time. So gay marriage is not demanded overnight as this was one thing the religious opposition found most difficult. Until a point was reached where society itself was saying "Why not".

What we seem to be having here is an origional act that allowed around 5000 transexuals to be recognised as the opposite sex, largely without problem. A "tidying up" could have learned from problems that had arisen to make it easier for trans peple, but also look at issues faced by vulerable groups within society and to protect teenagers who might be vulnerable to ROGD. (I think Karen White may have had a GRC.)

Instead we have Stonewall conflating sex and gender, and using societies existing tolerance to try to push through some weird sort of gender bollocks with no debate. There needs to be debate.

So I have no problem with other reponsible members of society, be they men, trans or the Daily Mail speaking up and pointing out that unlike the origional campaign for homosexual equality where there no obvious losers, as it was effectively about what people did in the privacy of their bedrooms, this is different. This is as much about protecting women's spaces as about accepting trans people.

And the campaign is very different. Stonewall is very different. There seems to be no recognition of societal concerns. It is very me, me, me and demanding.

So its not really about allies or friends of women. It is about the society we want. Men and transpeople who accept that women have rights and needs and who are prepared to respect boundaries and discuss changes are fine. Call them what you will but listen, discuss and if need be agree to disagree. People who want to insist that low wage beauticians should wax their balls, that they should have access to vulnerable women, like prisoners, those in refuges or Girl Guides etc are not fine, or endose drugging and mutilating healthy children's bodies without real caution, are not fine. Really not fine.

So it boils down to who is prepared to be part of a responsible and respectful society and who is not.

And lets face it, some women....Ruth Hunt...Susie Green...are far less likely to be described as friends or allies than the brave trans and intersex people who have and are speaking out.

My kneejerk response was to say that if I can be considered an ally to BAME campaigners (as a white person) then transsexuals - and men - can be allies to women.

Ally to me means you both actively work towards the same goal, from different back grounds, equally. Id struggle to call myself an ally of BAME campaigners as I'm not actively campaigning. I think of allied armies with the word ally, actively fighting. Or ready to fight. Or that my husband is an ally in our marriage and while raising our children except when it comes to the laundry where he clearly works in opposition.

I work extensively with children with asd and speak out as much as I can in any area I can. But still don't see myself as an ally? But maybe because I don't like to label myself with that word on their behalf; I'd need those people to deem my support enough to be an ally if that makes sense?

But I guess In this way I probably do see Miranda as an ally.

Looking at the dictionary definition it does say ally is 'mutual benefit.' As well as the military term.

I wonder if you're just sensitive, self aware and too humble to call yourself an ally hamster?

Probably rambling, had 3 hours interrupted sleep with ill child.

Ally to me means you both actively work towards the same goal, from different back grounds, equally.

Do women and TS/TG people want the same goals?

I don't want the definition of women to be changed to include a subset of men, regardless of how small that subset is. That's not what I'm working towards.

The same with sex segregation, and opportunities for women and girls.

But isn't that the point of TS, to be seen and treated as the opposite sex, therefore 'woman' changes its meaning and sex segregation has to disappear?

How can we be allies if our aims are conflicting?

There's been explicit suggestions/ demands by Stonewall etc as to 'how to be a good trans allies'. Its part of a workplace training scheme which they provide.
Launch partners included House of Commons, Linklaters, Lloyds, Intellectual Property Office, Cheshire Police & Fire Service, Proctor & Gamble, Welsh Assembly, York St John University.

www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/get-involved-ind-and-comm/trans-allies-programme

www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/commons/media-relations-group/news/house-of-commons-proud-to-join-trans-ally-scheme/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228481-Cis-allies-being-asked-to-provide-protection