Can transsexuals truly be allies to women?

[Hamster00]

Last night in bed, between my brain deciding to torment me with "what are baby llama called?" and, "what time is your dentist appointment next week?", I ended up regurgitating "that thread" from yesterday. That thread in which I was called an ally a couple of times by other members.

As I stared at the ceiling, I started indulging in a bit of mental self-flagellation which raised more questions than I had answers for such as:

Transsexuals have no real "movement" insofar as creating our own spaces. Are we as "allies" just piggybacking the larger feminist movement to achieve our mutually but not exclusive goals? Surely that's just another way of exploiting women? Aren't we just really just joining another group to protect our own rights? Is our relationship parasitic rather than symbiotic?

MtF transsexuals are still biologically male, have male socialisation and thus the innate potential propensity towards violence. Surely we still a threat to women even after a surgical/medical outcome?

Can we truly empathise with women having never been one? We have no shared experience of women's lived experience/trauma.

Whilst we can be GC, can we truly call ourselves feminists? Can men be feminists? Is a man calling themself a feminist appropriation too?

I'm not trying to be contentious but inviting perspectives so I can try and organise some of this in my head a little bit better. I think many people know my feelings all to well in relation to self-ID, single sex spaces and TRA appropriation etc - but is that actually being an "ally" - or just someone who shares the same set of ideas....

Just thinking aloud, but sexism seen/believed individually and sexism as imposed on the individual by society are different.

Yes, that's a good point. Working 'within the system' is something we probably all do to a certain extent.

One in respect of the sensation of dysphoria from then to now as a sense of self - but also that feeling of discomfort that essentially I've been part of the problem.

Okay, yes I can see which way you're travelling now. I think?

Are you saying that whereas the causes of gender dysphoria might be rooted in sexism, the treatment of it certainly is, which perpetuates the cause?

And yes I can understand how that would be an absolute mindfuck.

But I guess we all travel that way slightly, as bowl has mentioned above.

Probably completely off topic but in relation to what R0 linked to regarding body dysmorphic disorder - in the 90's a student (msc? PhD?) did research at Manchester university on people with either this or facial deformities. I think it was bds though.

Through a series of interviews she painted them as they saw themselves (usually features they were uncomfortable with were exaggerated in their heads) and again as they really were. Then spent time with them comparing the images - the idea was to help them reassess the reality with what the brain said.

I can't help thinking / wondering about perceptions, the brain etc. Are there other ways to help through visual therapies? I'm also reminded by research around mh plummeting suddenly in areas that got access to tv / visual advertising later than other parts of the world ( referenced in The Affluenza Virus).

Woman's hour today had someone on talking about their body hatred and of their breasts and linking it directly to the Sun newspaper.

In autism there's a clear difference in how brains are organised or function; perception can be one area that can be different. There can be a difficulty with central coherence which crudely means 'struggling to see the bigger picture,' but how this is expressed can be very different in different individuals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weakcentrallcoherencetheory

Not sure where I'm going with this, though it seems some of J Caspians work may look at this, and of course not everyone with gender dysphoria is autistic. I just wonder if different treatments were on offer it would both help to alleviate some people's difficulties without affirmation surgery and also help to calm the storm.

But I fear writing the above is deemed transphobic by some. It's all about perception.

that feeling of discomfort that essentially I've been part of the problem. You're not the problem or even a part of the problem.

that feeling of discomfort that essentially I've been part of the problem.

"You're not the problem or even a part of the problem"

No I would say a victim. The people who are a problem are those who won't talk about it or let others talk about it.

Miranda, yes I know you say you're a man. It's more to do with speculation as to how gender dysphoria starts, to me.

For some it is internalised homophobia. For others it’s the depressions and obsessive fixation caused by the unrequited love of being autogyneohiles.

Yes I was thinking victim.

It's an interesting discussion Hamster I was struck by your definition of an ally on the first page
well I don't wish that group/cause any harm and would support equal rights/for them to achieve their goal

I don't wish people within the TRA cause harm and absolutely support equal rights for transsexuals and transgender so by that definition I'm an ally although I'm sur ethey would not consider me to be one.

I find some of the transgender twitter accounts really sad (and I am well aware anytime I express pity on this board trans activists mass report my post so this post may disappear and be another 'strike')

Some of them appear lost and alone and are looking for somewhere to belong to. However having found a tribe it seems to make them angry, unhappy and chasing a physical ideal they will never be able to meet. I absolutely wish them well and would like them to have access to good caring MN support.

However I don't support their aims where those aims are trampling all over womens rights and freedoms and being seen as womaning better than women.

Miranda would you think it's fair to say that all transsexuals certainly have a pinch of AGP in relation to the onset of GD? I'm not trying to be contentious but it's something that keeps crossing my mind.

I wonder if we could weed out sexism, toxic masculinity, male violence and homophobia would Gender dysphoria still exist ?

Miranda would you think it's fair to say that all transsexuals certainly have a pinch of AGP in relation to the onset of GD? I'm not trying to be contentious but it's something that keeps crossing my mind.

For the vast majority yes.

I wonder if we could weed out sexism, toxic masculinity, male violence and homophobia would Gender dysphoria still exist ?

Yes but not to the extent it exists now. Porn is at the heart of a lot of AGP. See for example the [mirandayardley.com/en/pornography-and-autogynephilia-in-the-narratives-of-adult-transgender-males/ TRAs I analyse here].

Where is the edit button when I need it!

Analysis of AGP in trans males

I think this is such an important thread.

I don't have the words today to say much but I'd like to thank you hamster for starting this thread and being here to discuss openly and thoughtfully, addressing difficult issues, seeking understanding and common ground between humans, men and women, transsexuals and women, whoever, even if sex cannot change, and women will always need single sex spaces. And all my heroine women posters. You boost my flagging spirit :)

MH care is terribly inadequate and we need to do more to support children and to provide long term care to sufferers, not quick fixes or nothing. There is so much that need improving.

Very good thread.

Yes but not to the extent it exists now.

That's the conclusion I've come to.

Good thread. Learning a lot from you lot

I have only skimmed the thread, so apologies if I am being tone deaf.

Back when this was all just theoretical and not an active campaign to erase sex based rights, I was really so pleased by the idea that there was these men that so actively resisted toxic masculinity that they wanted to perform being the object of misogyny, misogyny in this context being the foundations of patriarchy. So I thought that trans was about maleness and masculinity and had no specific statements to make about women (as opposed to femininity). And it is so provocative to masculinity, that some men literally want to kill MtFs.

Basically in my head, MtFs were under taking a personally incredibly high risk protest against masculinity and even drew fire away from women in so doing, because they made themselves so utterly public to gender policing. They also absolutely subverted the idea sex based clothing and behaviours by you know, not being women and instead being men , showing that none of their behaviours or preferences are inherent to sex. In this, I thought of them as allies and revolutionaries.

Obviously now I have peak transed about fifty billion times and am not so hopeful about our future on the barricades together. But I harbour a little secret hope that this will be the next phase of our fight against the patriarchy

I should add that the trans in all this was about transgression of sex based stereotypes, and the use of those stereotypes a necessary mechanism to undermine them

Also - I hardly dare admit it - I thought this is what Judith Butler was going for, though admittedly that was on the basis of stringing one sentence together out of five

Thanks Miranda, AGP was the aspect I forgot about and probably the most problematic of all. A timely reminder I must read your blogs

Very interesting discussion Hamster I started my thoughts on pg 1 with an 'in my mind' because it was my personal view however I knew other responses would be thought provoking. I try not tell other people how to be feminists, transsexuals, allies or anything else.

I wish it was easier to have these discussions in real life...

For the vast majority yes.

I don't think that's much of a surprise to women, to be honest. I shall have to read your AGP essay again Miranda.

I can read about transsexualism, gender dysphoria and AGP till the cows come home. But it remains an intellectual exercise.

It's not something that I can relate to particularly easily. I can understand being dissatisfied with your body, few women can't. And I can understand looking at how the other sex gets treated, and seeing the grass is greener situation. Obviously.

But not to the point of departure from reality in the way AGP happens. It appears to be so far removed from women's actual experience, both in having AGP, and being the (alleged) subject of it.

When men talk about themselves as women, the 'women' part seems completely alien. An invention.

Which of course it is.

And I think that's where a lot of the anger for women comes in. The disconnect between what men think of women, why they think it, and then how they subvert it for their own ends, whilst maintaining that's what women are.

Being transsexual is, I believe, a supremely selfish experience.

Nothing wrong with selfishness per se! We all are, to one degree or another - we have to be in order to survive. I am selfish. I procreated and brought children into this world purely because I wanted to.

Selfishness is fine as long as it does not harm others. But how can a trans person balance their legitimate selfishness with the legitimate needs of others?

Certainly one can be respectful of others, but in trying to appropriate some of what others have, which they are unable to give away, can one ever be truly one of them?

Really interesting and thought provoking thread.

I don't think that's much of a surprise to women, to be honest. I shall have to read your AGP essay again Miranda.

see also Sue Donym's recent article, 'The Elephant in the Room'
concludes:

"Please Discuss The Elephant
If there’s one thing you ought to do, it’s discuss the elephant. Please discuss the elephant. Don’t leave it rampaging around the room, destroying everything in its path.

Autogynephilia is a weird concept. It can be inaccessible. But it needs to be discussed in the LGBT community, and openly. Not talking about it is causing way too much damage — we have had our organizations taken over, our spaces colonized, and our sexuality redefined. Thanks to these men, you can no longer say ‘I am, gay, meaning exclusively same-sex attracted’ without being labelled a TERF. That’s not a good thing.

Dancing around the subject isn’t helpful. While the ultimate result of autogynephilia is homophobic rhetoric, is important to remember that a sexual fantasy, not homophobia, motivates such rhetoric. That is the root cause of the problem.

Worse is the effect on autogynephiles themselves. ‘Transgender’ is not an umbrella. It is a term that erases the very different motivations and causes of various forms of gender dysphoria. It does people who claim the label absolutely no favors. The original inclusion of the ‘T’ was designed for homosexual transsexuals, and include them with other same-sex attracted individuals. It was not designed to include autogynephiles, who are heterosexual males, or ‘queer’ individuals who are heterosexual but believe dying their hair some variation of neon should mean they are included. Making ‘transgender’ an umbrella not only erases the very different causes and struggles associated with homosexual transsexuality, it also obscures the causes of, and struggles associated with autogynephilia. Autogynephilia is not a condition I would wish on anyone. It is a unique, somewhat bizarre struggle, and reading through many of the accounts of it was quite sad. It can make its sufferers lonely and unable to connect with intimate partners. But enabling it, and on a grand scale, has caused immense damage to homosexuals, particularly lesbians, who have lost almost all their spaces and communities to colonization.

Please discuss the elephant."
medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-elephant-in-the-room-dc822144a81b

I noticed one of my posts made reference to 'MN support' gonna blame fat fingers I meant 'MH support'

A really interesting thread, thanks OP

My kneejerk response was to say that if I can be considered an ally to BAME campaigners (as a white person) then transsexuals - and men - can be allies to women.

But now I'm wondering whether that really is the case. Maybe the most we can do is provide specific support in situations where our privilege accords us a voice but denies it to others? And similarly, this is what women need from men and transsexuals: them being prepared to stand up (a la Glinner, a la Miranda) in particular instances where it is helpful to support the argument that women are making for themselves?

To be honest I don't like words like 'allies'/'sisters'/'siblings' when applied to political parties and causes. I understand that the point is strength through solidarity, but the language is also used to silence dissent and criticism. If you don't follow the party line you are a traitor.

I don't have to be somebody's 'ally' to support same sex marriage. I just need to have a moral compass and follow the logic.

Politics shouldn't be a fight between teams. We should all be able to think through the arguments and come to our own conclusions based on their merit.

I saw this today (online communities forming opposing sides based on e.g. harry/hermione and harry/ginny fandom), and sadly I think it's very relevant to a lot of current political discourse.

slatestarcodex.com/2013/12/23/we-are-all-msscribe/