women at Girton College Cambridge aren’t allowed 1 hour out of 83 hours to swim in a female only environment

[papayasareyum]

I’ve just read this. Apparently they wanted 1 measly hour for women to swim, without men.
1 hour. The rest of the time, the pool is available for men and women. This is Girton college, a women’s only college, Cambridge.
A www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6665283/Fury-posters-women-non-binary-gym-sessions-defaced-Cambridge-College.html
A man was outside protesting apparently.

I'm not sure anyone objects to men only sessions, do they? I don't, although their reasons may be very different.

A fundamental principle of feminism is surely being able to freely associate without the enforced presence of men IF wanted.

And I think it unlikely that the Girton College swimming pool women's hour is driven by patriarchal men forcing segregation on their wives and banning mixed swimming.

It falls neatly into the category of occasions when being in a state of complete or partial undress in the presence of men might reasonably discourage some women from participation at all. Applies across the gamut from smear tests to changing rooms to certain sporting activities.

It certainly doesn't affect all women, plenty are not concerned.
But forcing compulsory male presence on other women in intimate or vulnerable circumstances is not in any way feminism.
Women self-exclude for very valid reasons.
And suggesting their only options are suck it up or miss out entirely is not on. Other options are available. Like one hour a week to put a cozzie on without the fellas around and have a swim you wouldn't have otherwise been able to enjoy.

The world is mixed (genders). Work places are mixed. Beaches are mixed in the UK, Restaurants and bars are mixed.

And yes, I would complain about not being able to go swimming because I had been locked out by a men only session. I am not going to support double standards.

There is a fucking avalanche of shit sandwich posts on this board of late.

I'm on your side but ... shit shit your thinking shit ... but totes on your side as long as you know your wrong ok?

It has not gone unnoticed.

There are many reasons for single sex swim sessions. It is important that facilities who refuse women their right to single sex spaces are made accountable.

I don’t give a flying fuck if some women think that other women shouldn’t have female spaces, because of XYZ. It’s not up to you to police these women and tell them that their feelings are wrong, if they want a space away from men. The only issue I would have is the fact that it isn’t actually a female swim. It is a woke mixed swim.

I would have no problem with a
female swim,
female/non binary swim,
male swim,
male/non binary swim.

I swim alot, and have done for years, at many pools, public and private. I've never seen any evidence of male harrassment. Ever.

Lucydo I used to swim a lot, I had a man shout and scream at me when i dared to swim faster than him - he was a slow poke in the medium/fast lane and funnily enough he said fuck all to the man (who was bigger than hin) who had just left our lane. We get a lot of men wuth fragile egis who cant handle a woman swimming faster than him, I've seen other men deliberately try to push women out of the fast lanes even though its the men who arent fast.

Another man was staring at me whilst i swam, then followed me into the near empty changing village by who took the shower right next to me (theres 3 separate group showers with 8 shower heads in each) , then he went into the cubicle next to me (despite like the showers, I'd chosen a cubicle that wasnt the easiest one to walk to, to trst if he was following me) and then he proceeded to push loads of his clothes under my side of the cubicle - I had strong suspicions he was either trying to sneak his phone hidden in the clothes or as a distraction to film me over the top. I legged it sharpish as it was dark and i didn't want to face this guy alone in a dark empty car park.

Then there was a group of about 4 or 5 men who were taking it turns to go under the water to leer at women in the pool then loudly laugh and talk about the women's bodies amongst each other.

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that other people may feel differently to them?

Why not turn your disapproval on to the men who make womenfeel uncomfortable and the society that enables this , rather than the women who want some time out from feeling intimidated? Pretending you're ok with something you're not is not healthy. Why should they have to do that, just because you're fine with it?

Isn't that the basis for all kinds of coercion and trampling on boundaries?

I'm not too bothered about swimming with men but I've given up using the sauna facilities at the local leisure centre due to inappropriate behaviour from random men practically every time I went there (leering, staring, sitting too close, trying to chat when Id made it clear i didn't want to interact etc)

Sorry I should have explained about the men pushing women out of lanes thing. They dont physically push them, they block the lane by swimming down the middle, block the full end of the lane so she cant turn, ridiculous exaggerated arm movements whilst swimming and splashing which miraculously stops when shes moved lanes.

Urgh crunchermuncher what is it about saunas that draws the sleezy men out from under the rocks?

StarlightLady
What's really regressive and Victorian is (some) men's behaviour and attitude to women. When that changes (i.e. never) then there will be no need for women only spaces but until then they are necessary for safety and comfort/dignity. It's not a matter of 'pandering' to outdated segregation, it's a fact of life for women that (some) men pose a threat to us and, while that is the case, it is totally reasonable to want to protect ourselves from that threat. The problem is men and yet women are still somehow 'wrong' for our reaction to their behaviour?

ecumenical what did the pool attendants do when you complained about this behaviour?
wonderblah thank you for your great post. Just when I though nobody on this board had a sense of humour. this has not gone unnoticed. Hilarious.
But, in the end, isn't it sad that, back in the day, Feminism was about women being strong, and encouraging other women to be strong. A man challenges you? Challenge him back. What is to be gained from being weak, and enabling other women to be weak?

How exactly does you kind of feminism encourage women to be strong,@lucydo? All you seem to be doing is making it clear that women are responsible for any issues they encounter and responsible for sorting them out. And they are weak if they haven't been able to do that.

Feminism was about women being strong,

The more I learn about feminism from people on this board, the moreI am relieved that I have never claimed to be a feminist. It sounds like feminists would trample over grannies to prove how tough and man like they are.

So back to the OP.

Some women like to have single sex swimming sessions. Right or wrong they find single sex sessions more enjoyable. They are asking for one hour a week.

Why, why why, do feminists demand that these young women behave like feminists. Perhaps these women are sick of being told what they should want, by either men or feminists. What is wrong with them making a simple request and having it granted. It won’t do anyone else any harm.

tell me where I said that women are responsible for these issues? But yes, women are responsible for sorting them out. Of course we all are as women. Who else? The alternative that is being proposed here is to retreat from the society of men. And if that isn't regressing to the Victorian era, I don't know what is.

@Needmoresleep I don't think that Lucydo's idea of feminism is typical, the idea that women can solve all the issues they face by having some more balls.

Not that there is anything wrong with women being strong, of course.

"sounds like feminists would trample over grannies to prove how tough and man like they are." - this is a total misrepresentation of any kind of feminism. Feminism is not about making women man like.

the idea that women can solve all the issues they face by having some more balls. boy, you're really going in for misinterpreting me aren't you? I NEVER SAID THAT.
Of course we will struggle and fail, but we'll also struggle and win.
Retreating from these problems will solve nothing.

No one is suggesting retreating from men, and promoting the idea that women and men must be separate at all times, as some kind of feminism theory.

Having single sex swim sessions is nothing like that, and not the start of any kind of slippery slope. By forcing all activities to be mixed sex you make everything male dominated. Women who want a short respite from men should be able to have that. Especially for something like physical activity which is a healthy thing to do, if those women might not otherwise participate.

Of course the swimming staff should police mixed sessions and make sure that any overt poor behaviour is identified and the perpetrators warned/banned. That can be done alongside having single sex sessions.

I am well fed up of this attitude that if women have reasonable justification for being wary of mixed sex environments that they are somehow regressive or weak. It's a horrible attitude to have towards women.

Surely freedom includes being able to have a preference for women’s only swimming sessions.

I don’t know how much swimming Lucydo does, but men really do hog lanes and often have little regard for women’s space. (Trying to think of a swimming word for man spreading.) Others may have cultural, body image, or safety concerns. They should be allowed these. But can’t women just have their own hour because women only sessions are more relaxing. Why should women be expected to sacrifice their own preferences, simply because feminists tell them to. Women’s rights to me are about women being to assert their preferences and needs. Not having to prove you are more manly than men. And perhaps the Victorians got some things right. (Bit of an Octavia Hill fan myself.)

speaking as another Octavia Hill fan... where did I want to say that we should be more 'manly than men'? It's so weird having a woman write that as an insult. It's takes me back to the days when women used to be called 'man haters' if they were a tiny bit assertive.
I swim, and have done for decades, 2 or 3 times a week in public and private pools.
We'll have to agree to differ on this, as I really, really don't think being wary of a mixed sex environment is reasonable. It's pathetic. And, don't forget, how do you think the wrong sort of men (who are a tiny minority) like women to be? Timid. And this is timidity.

"and yes, I would be perfectly happy to make Hampstead Pools all mixed..."

So you, a woman, would be "perfectly happy" to remove a very famous gay friendly male space in london that has oodles of history attached to it, and to a similar extent a lesbian space.

You think that you have the right to casually say. Oh Yes, open this up to women. Women should be here...

Recently some women did go there, to show up the issues with the (non) rules at the womens pond, and the men were not happy. Not happy at all.

I am FINE with men having continued use of this space.

Why are you not? And why do you see it as something that is to do with you? You're not a gay man who uses the ponds, yet you feel quite comfortable to say they should have it taken away.

" What I would fight for is women-only spaces in prisons, hospitals, and refuges. Where women NEED seperate spaces."

So your line in the sand is different.
Plenty of women see no problem with mixed sex wards, as an example. Why are you right and they wrong?

I have met a lot of poeple in my life who say "there's my way and the wrong way" and I am getting that feeling very strongly right now.

Pathetic. Well there it is. I can't get my head anyone who thinks that women are pathetic for wanting a short respite from harassment, or who have very good reason to be wary of men. It doesn't sound like you think very much of women at all.

out of interest, do posters think that men are entitled to respite from women? It's only recently that all-male golf clubs have allowed women to join. When I was a student in Edinburgh, several pubs were male-only. Should we have thought that was normal and OK? After all, they did need a respite from women?

I stayed on a mixed ward in a hosp when I was 18.

I was the only female there.

It was not a comfortable experience but nothing bad happened past a lot of staring.

At the time, I would have said that any woman or girl who didn't want to be on a ward because there were men on it, was patheric.

I was 18. I have grown up somewhat, had some more life experience and developed a bit of empathy.

Now I would not say that at all.

You see, when I was 18 I would have thought you were sexist, hopelessly fearful, and yes pathetic, lucydo.

We live and learn though. Or at least some of us do.

Why don't you read the pose 2 above yours lucydo for my asnwer to

do men deserve a space of their own.

fwiw we also have dads and babies things round here and also various clubs for elderly men. These are men only. I have never met anyone who had any issue with that and I'd think anyone who did was a bit weird TBH.

Do you think the men who go to hampstead mens pond are "pathetic", lucydo?

Or do you reserve that for women who have a different line in the sand to you.