women at Girton College Cambridge aren’t allowed 1 hour out of 83 hours to swim in a female only environment

[papayasareyum]

I’ve just read this. Apparently they wanted 1 measly hour for women to swim, without men.
1 hour. The rest of the time, the pool is available for men and women. This is Girton college, a women’s only college, Cambridge.
A www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6665283/Fury-posters-women-non-binary-gym-sessions-defaced-Cambridge-College.html
A man was outside protesting apparently.

The University appear to have totally missed the point of the "defacement" of the poster. The person who wrote "everyone" in place of non-binary was clearly making the point that we are all non-binary and that using this term means everyone can attend this woman only session.

But the response from the college seems to suggest that this was men getting upset at no being allowed in. In fact, it is completely the opposite. They just don't realise that their "special gym session" is already open to everyone because they don't understand what non-binary means...

Yes, men are moaning about losing one hour a week - but they are not the ones who defaced the poster. That was clearly a Gender critical woman.

I am concerned about the erosian of women's rights but don't think that this is an issue. When I swim, it never crosses my mind about the sex of other swimmers. I'm too busy swimming. Have we really got so precious that we can't swim in the same pool at the same time as men? Why not save our gunpowder for the important battles.

Oh come on. It's not about being "precious", that's dismissive of how many women totally reasonably feel. And it's one hour out of the weekly schedule. It's hardly a big ask, for those who wouldn't swim otherwise.

lucydo this isn't about how you feel. It is an important battle if other women are unable to use a mixed sex session.
They include women in coercive relationships, abuse survivors, and women from conservative cultures.

One hour a week just for women. Why is that not permitted?

fine. but, apart from what I would just to be a fairly small number of women in coercive relationships, and abuse survivors affected by this (I don't think that we should pander to conservative cultures) I don't think it is a reasonable feeling to not be comfortable swimming with men in the pool.
It feels like we're regressing to Victorian times, frankly.

rememberatime you sound quite confident about this, and it makes sense to me (although if true it should have been rather more explicitly stated) may I ask if you know this to be true or if it's a guess?

Its not about 'pandering to conservative cultures'. Its about enabling the women who live in them to participate in ordinary activities.. To learn to speak English, to mingle with other people outside of the house.
Change is a slow process. It doesn't happen at all if you don't enable it.

I actually thought the "vandal" might be protesting against non binary being included and pointing out that this means everyone can come. Not protesting about men not being allowed.

Lucydo, many of the girls may feel fine, but they may be concerned for Muslim, orthodox Jewish, or overweight/struggling with body image friends.

Last year the girls on DDs University course organised a girls only night out, so that their Muslim coursemates, several of whom were living at home, could join them and feel able to take their hijabs off. I have heard reports that in some Universities, Muslim students are inclined to self-isolate. Small things, like an hours swim session a week, or a considerate girls' night out, will help prevent this.

And this at University. A loss of single sex spaces in a wider society could have a real adverse impact on community cohesion.

You just said it's unreasonable to be uncomfortable swimming with men.

And you listed your chosen exemptions.

Do you think maybe it's for women to decide for themselves?

Some women may choose to swim only with other women. It's entirely reasonable, whatever their reasons.

My last post was addressed to lucydo.

I don't understand why you would be against enabling women to be active, who wouldn't if there were only mixed sessions?

Do you recognise that many women are harassed by men, whether severely or at a low level, and would welcome a brief period of time where that definitely isn't going to happen?

And maybe after a while swimming in a single sex environment they may be happy to try a mixed session?

I don't think that we should pander to conservative cultures

I dont think girls are the ones who set the rules in conservative cultures.

i know what you mean re regression - it was one of the reasons I was appalled when Jeremy Corbyn a while ago floated single sex tube carriages as an idea for combating increasing levels of assault on the underground. it seemed to remove responsibility from men to do better. (he has since unlearned what sex actually is apparently)

however i don't think encouraging women from conservative cultures or abusive relationships to participate in the life of this country is the same as pandering to those cultures / situations. by definition if a woman is from a conservative culture / abusive relationship she will have very little power so pandering to her is pointless. including her however is not and has many benefits for everyone. inclusion does not have to imply 100% agreement with all of her culture or situation. it can be the vital link these women need.

one of my local pool has a women only session and it is extremely popular. imagine the women there have varied reasons for wanting to attend. i don't think it is a lot to ask.

and the difference between a non binary identified person and 90% of people that they would label as "cis" is purely down to levels of self interest.

i could firmly wedge myself beneath the trans umbrella should i so wish.

that's OK, go ahead, join the protest, but I honestly think that when we think it's normal (which is what you seem to be saying) not to swim because there are men in the pool, it is like wilfully going back to the victorian era.
Didn't women fight to decades to free themselves from these kinds of attitudes?
Yes, I can see why, in the categories that you've mentioned of abused women, that this might not be the case. But I've already said that and posters have chosen to ignore that I've said it.
But other women? No. In the past mixed swimming was seen as wrong and inappropriate, we should not be normalising a return to that attitude. Feminism should be about having some balls.

Should it? I'm not interested in fake equality. I'd like women to have a bit of space and the freedom to make their own decisions.

what's fake equality?

Feminism should be about enabling women to have more choices and options than they would do other wise. Berating them for not having enough balls isn't very helpful, imo. It's also totally ignoring the fact that many women are harassed by men in their daily lives, feel vulnerable when doing an activity like swimming and might only feel able to participate in a single sex environment. It's pretending that we live in a perfect world and women are just weird or useless if they would prefer single sex sessions.

Feminism should be about having some balls

That seems to be an unfortunate turn of phrase

one of my local pool has a women only session and it is extremely popular.

Including amongst middle aged white women who feel uncomfortable that they have not been able to maintain Elle McPherson bodies. Indeed swimming is about the best exercise for those who need to lose substancial ammounts of weight - people for whom wearing a swimming costume, even at women only sessions is a major step.

I swim a lot, and TBH I would love that my gym had women only sessions. Women tend to be so much politer than men, and it is rarely much fun when a man is steaming up and down a shared lane, almost trying to provie how much faster he is.

I used to go to a 'ladies' swimming session years ago - I've never been abused, don't in general mind mixed activities - but having gone once because the time was convenient and 'safe' (not too late in the evening), I preferred it because it was just nicer, calmer.

A lot of young women, of all shapes and sizes, are self-conscious about their bodies - it does put quite a lot off physical activity. A few sex sessions (I would be in favour of some for the chaps too) just give more options.

I don't think it's a reasonable feeling to not be comfortable swimming with men in the pool

Back in the pre-DC days when I looked vaguely OK in a swimsuit I used to go to a ladies' swimming session, but it was always really busy and crowded. So one night I went when the pool was open to anyone. Big mistake. It was a changing-village set up but with separate men's and women's areas - which the men were completely ignoring. Getting changed in a locked cubicle with men nearby didn't bother me - but the fact that they ignored the signs saying it was the women's area made me wonder what other boundaries they didn't respect.

Anyway, when I actually ventured the pool it was just horrible - crowds of men in the spa pool staring at every woman who walked past - literally following us with their eyes, and I was wolf-whistled at and just generally ogled and leered at. In short I found out why the ladies night was so busy!

Now I haven't been to that pool in years - things might have changed since then - and as a middle-aged woman I am less likely to be leered at nowadays. And of course NAMALT. But as a young woman I never went back to the mixed swimming at that pool. Was it really unreasonable of me not to want to get leered at and catcalled when I already felt self-conscious in my swimsuit? And I'm not from "a conservative culture" FFS.

Until ALL men learn to behave themselves in that setting I will support the right of young women to go for a swim without being harassed.

Errol - typo?

Girton hasn't been women only for about 30 years...