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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Police contact thoughtful humanist blogger about their wrongthink

124 replies

Iggypoppie · 04/02/2019 12:50

Shocking - free speech is a joke in this country

deadinteresting.blogspot.com/2018/01/death-doesnt-misgender-you-die-as-you.html

twitter.com/Flashmaggie/status/1092346957635428352

OP posts:
coppercolouredtop · 06/02/2019 15:28

theotherpam

the RUI is used now due to the bail act being redefined not because of the pressure on forces. There are much stricter rules on how bail can be applied and used. you can bail once for up to 28 days. if the investigation is protracted (involving examining phones/laptops) its likely that would take longer than 28 days
so then an extension needs to be sought. after that each extenstion is only authorised by a super - its to stop people being held on bail and in limbo for what was in some cases years.

the issue for shark is that she is unfortunately not officially the victim so the investigating officer has no obligation to keep her updated.

without knowing the full facts of the complaint made against her its very difficult to advise.

IAmNotInvisible · 06/02/2019 15:46

@SharkBastard so sorry this is happening to you. How much would a replacement laptop and phone be - is it something you could set up crowdfunding for?

SharkBastard · 06/02/2019 17:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StarsAndWater · 06/02/2019 17:45

Shark, as others have said, if you do need help with legal fees or to challenge it, I'd also be happy to contribute to a funder.
So sorry, you're having to deal with this.

GCT22 · 06/02/2019 17:54

Could someone who is articulate and can explain why policing thoughts isn’t the proper role of our police force start a petition about this on the official government website? I think there would be dozens of Tory MPs aghast to learn that the police are being used in this way if they only knew about it. Getting 100,000 signatures would force a debate in Parliament which would make MPs more aware about what is actually going on.

I think it could get 100,000 signatures as large online YouTubers who albeit are not feminists but are committed to free speech seem to be picking up on this now and would likely promote the petition. Sometimes the online newspapers write about online petitions as they’re easy stories to cover.

R0wantrees · 06/02/2019 18:28

Could someone who is articulate and can explain why policing thoughts isn’t the proper role of our police force

The specific issues are with regards the translobbies' influence on public services eg police, nhs, prisons, education.

THe lobbyists have influenced policy, legislation and training to the detriment of Safeguarding and Women's rights.

It is recognised and evident that there will be those who are anti-feminist and have other political agendas re free speech etc who may wish to co-opt the experiences of those who are silenced for 'wrong think' against trans-ideology. This could likely be to the detriment of vulnerable women and children.

Popchyk · 07/02/2019 14:36

Thread reinstated.

Important that we get to keep this information on here.

R0wantrees · 07/02/2019 15:18

From 2016 Spectator article by Melanie Philips,
(extract)
"Worse still, something most children grow out of may cause them to become — to use the Miller committee’s own boo-word — pathologised. According to Professor McHugh, prepubescent children who begin imitating the opposite sex are being treated by misguided doctors with puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgery less onerous — even though such drugs stunt children’s growth and risk causing sterility. These are the very drugs that the Miller committee wants the specialist Tavistock gender clinic to prescribe to children with less delay.

These MPs are turning gender confusion from a health issue into a political statement to be enforced. So of course they also want to turn denying or questioning gender fluidity into a hate crime. Certainly, anyone who attacks or threatens people on account of their gender should be prosecuted. But the committee wants ‘stirring up hatred’ against trans people to become a crime — which would include insulting them by saying they belong to the sex they deny.

The Law Commission didn’t support that, observing that ‘criminalisation might also inhibit discussion of disability and transgender issues and of social attitudes relating to them’.

You bet. The Miller committee wants ‘mandatory national transphobic hate-crime training for police officers and the promotion of third-party reporting’.

Heaven help us — Caroline Dinenage, a junior minister at the Ministry of Justice, meekly agreed to this sinister proposal and confessed the government was ‘very much on a journey’. (continues)

www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-dangerous-and-wrong-to-tell-all-children-theyre-gender-fluid/

The quotes from Law Commission & Maria Miller MP's committee report aren't hyperlinks but it would be worth establishing the source and context

Bluestitch · 07/02/2019 17:36

I've just seen that Margaret will be speaking on Anglia News at 6pm if there is anybody else in that region.

coppercolouredtop · 07/02/2019 18:07

Rowan

I'm a pc and resent my job being used in this way.

It is not for the likes of me to start telling anyone how or what to think.

I think the issue comes when the lines get blurred between offensive posts on social media and simple opinion.

It's difficult. People are more free and easy with their opinions behind a keyboard but who is deciding what constitutes a hate incident( as opposed to hate crimes which should be dealt with.

Bluestitch · 07/02/2019 18:18

Urgh. Gave Margaret a couple of minutes after saying her controversial comments understandably upset people (she was excellent and got in the proposed law changes). Then get on a transwoman and life coach to say how she doesn't understand, she's a product of her time, she has a duty of care if publishing on a public platform. Then say how most people are more accepting and support changes etc. Newsreader nodding and smiling along and says 'thats good to hear.' Pretty sure lots will be a bit baffled at the transwoman saying that biological sex is just another label you are assigned though.

MillytantForceit · 07/02/2019 18:22

Caught it on Sat TV.

One 'controversial' person 'balanced' by two people.

Melroses · 07/02/2019 18:48

Ageism is alive and well then.

R0wantrees · 07/02/2019 19:17

I think the issue comes when the lines get blurred between offensive posts on social media and simple opinion.

It's difficult. People are more free and easy with their opinions behind a keyboard but who is deciding what constitutes a hate incident( as opposed to hate crimes which should be dealt with.

coppercolouredtop There are specific issues with regards trans-rights' policies and training which are specifically impacting safeguarding frameworks intended to protect children and vulnerable adults, particularly women (adult human females).
When some male transpeople are using coercive control pattern behaviours including using police as a proxy against women, it is surely for the Police to investigate just as for the MoJ with regards prison policy.

Francis Crook executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform "said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."

source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

James Kirkup Spectator:
Why are the police stopping a 74-year-old tweeting about transgenderism?
(extract)
There are many practical and factual questions that arise from cases like these.

Why are the police acting in this way? What training have officers received in relation to transgender issues, and from whom? Are some people or organisations deliberately and vexatiously exploiting some police forces’ stance on this issue to instigate police action against people who say things they do not like? Could such police actions exert a chilling effect on the expression of opinion on transgender issues? Isn’t it possible that some people will now think ‘I’d best not say what I think about sex and gender, or the police might get involved?’

There are also some questions of principle.

Is it the job of police officers to act in such a way? To police private, lawful expressions of opinion, simply because some people complain that they find those expressions of opinion upsetting or unkind? What are the police for?

When Sir Robert Peel instigated the creation of the modern English police in 1829, the first Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis issued all constables with nine ‘General Instructions’ which are still in use today, underpinning the concept to ‘policing by consent.’

The first three principles are:

To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
I wonder what cases like that of Margaret Nelson do for ‘public approval’ of the ‘existence, actions and behaviour’ of the police? I also wonder when the politicians responsible for the framework of law in which the police exist and operate will start to ask whether cases like that of Mrs Nelson and Mr Miller require some scrutiny, and see that those questions above need some answers." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/why-are-the-police-stopping-a-74-year-old-tweeting-about-transgenderism/

merrymouse · 07/02/2019 19:30

Then get on a transwoman and life coach to say how she doesn't understand, she's a product of her time, she has a duty of care if publishing on a public platform.

This seems like lazy programming. The issue was free speech and the implementation of hate crime legislation.

It would have been helpful to hear from a lawyer, but it's not clear why a trans woman or a life coach would have any particular expertise in this area, unless they are also lawyers.

R0wantrees · 07/02/2019 19:45

This seems like lazy programming. The issue was free speech and the implementation of hate crime legislation.

This bias seems often the norm.

coppercolouredtop · 07/02/2019 20:05

Rowan I'm bowing out

I can't answer for 44 forces so I won't.

R0wantrees · 07/02/2019 20:07

coppercolouredtop I wasn't expecting you too of course.

It really does need police officers to be asking questions though and examining what is actually happening.

Bluestitch · 07/02/2019 20:23

This seems like lazy programming.

Par for the course with Anglia News. Very lightweight.

Popchyk · 07/02/2019 22:06

Tom Tugdenhat (Conservative MP) retweets the article from The Times about Maggie with the comment:

"Police requests for censorship are wrong. We must be able to debate ideas even if they offend".

twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1093407124657487872

BoreOfWhabylon · 08/02/2019 00:42

It really does need police officers to be asking questions though and examining what is actually happening.

I would imagine that individual police officers, like those in other public services, are understandably very wary of doing so.

R0wantrees · 08/02/2019 08:53

I would imagine that individual police officers, like those in other public services, are understandably very wary of doing so.

That will likely be the case, however questions do need to be asked and there needs to be scrutiny of how Police power is being manipulated.

theOtherPamAyres · 08/02/2019 14:06

I don't think we should underestimate the police culture surrounding Trans matters. These include:

  1. pressure from Maria Miller's Committee to 'crack down' on transphobia following a Yougov survey (2017, commissioned by Stonewall) showing a high level of unreported 'attacks'
  1. robust, powerful LBGT channels and infrastructure within the police service (to whom policies and practices are outsourced and accepted without question)
  1. Stonewall training that includes claims of high levels of 'attacks' and threats to trans people. This leads to a perception that tackling transphobes is a way of preventing further crimes.
  1. The fact that Government and all political parties believe that the police need to continue current practice. There is no dissent or criticisms from any quarter.

While individual police officers will ask: 'what the heck am I meant to do with this ridiculous complaint about so-called transpobia?', they will be lone swimmers against a tide.

Until Maria Miller and Government come to their senses and change tack, the police culture can't change.

coppercolouredtop · 08/02/2019 18:42

unless you know the law in relation to hate incidents then - its not down to training on trans issues.

its the person on the end of the phone line when someone rings up saying they are offended by something they chose to read.
what they should be saying is tough - dont read it then.
what they are doing is cowing to hate incidents and running scared.

the definition of a hate incident is getting very blurry in my experience.
its not just trans issues.

its truly not a training issue.
its that police forces are run like a customer focused "service" and what people demand people get.
it should not be this way. common sense has truly gone out of the window in most areas in policing - in my experience.

today i got an incident which was crimed - thats crimed - given a crime number - of harassment because someone washed their car then their neighbour started doing something that made their car get covered in dust.

the police in this country really are puppets and thats how i feel - like a puppet to be used and abused by anyone who wants to.
i didnt join to tell people what to think.
i didnt join to tell people they cant do harmless activities in their own garden.
i didnt join to cow tow to the minority of idiots that use the police now to get what they want.
but thats what i find myself doing, day in ,day out. its depressing. discretion is being taken away from us daily to the detriment of policing.
in so many areas - not jus thoughts/tweets/trans issues

i come home despairing of what im asked to do most days. a lot of it defies common sense.

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