Sandra Forgues: becoming a woman was a victory more profound than the Olympic title

[MrsSnippyPants]

Sorry, can’t get the share token to work, maybe someone else can? This might be in the sport section.

It's such a 1950's view of womanhood. That we're submissive delicate little things who won't do anything strenuous lest we break in to a sweat. And god forbid we lift anything heavier than a small shopping bag.

Any other bloke saying those things we'd rightfully point out the sexism. But because it's a transwoman we have to say ''so stunning and brave''. Well no, no no no no no.

Ah, I stand corrected. Janice Turner has responded on Twitter

twitter.com/JamesGheerbrant/status/1082246023446253568

Surprised at Janice.

I read this as trolling. Thought it was very funny. AGP mills and boon indeed!

The bit that really nails the truth is the interviewees comment that they benefited from transitioning late in life as they wouldn't have had the same status.

We are currently in the middle of a house reno and I have carried sanitary ware, doors and kitchens out of vans, does this mean I'm really a man?

I carried a large IKEA armchair up 2 flights of stairs, because there was no man around to do it.

Oh wait, maybe I’m really a man? Ah that would explain my manly thoughts about running things, telling younger men what to do, and earning lots of money?

Because none of those things is womanly.

Ffs

Its noticeable that the appoving comments about the article under the line and on twitter seem predominantly from men.
Whilst the male sports journalist seems also to mostly respond to them.

I think Janice's response is reasonable. Her first tweet is diplomatic and the second clearly shows she is escorting him up Mont Trans.

I haven’t been demure since I was born. I didn’t really know that it impacts on my sex.

I wonder if this make journalist and others are getting their rocks off over the fact that they can finally release their sexist thoughts and get away with saying things they never could about real women, and - RESULT! - it’s actually regarded as complimentary.

James - you're haunting your own comment section, so I know you're reading. The good news: you have a talent! The Bad Sex awards await your debut novel. The judges are salivating! The bad news: you're an oblivious, sexist berk like all the other oblivious, sexist berks. The even worse news: the Brave and Stunning™ narrative is SO last year. (But I suppose last year is better than the 1950s, so there's that.)

James Gheerbrant (in response to comments)

"I am struggling to understand this comment. Her birth gender was male, and all her elite sporting success came when she was a man, competing in men's events. There was no unfair advantage - if anything quite the opposite given that she was competing while struggling under the weight of gender dysphoria.

Indeed, she herself admits that it would have been unfair for her to transition during her career and compete in women's events. But she didn't do that - she started transitioning two years ago at the age of 45, long after her competitive retirement.

Her transition hasn't disadvantaged anyone, unless you're talking about the reference in the penultimate paragraph to taking part in the forthcoming French Masters champs - for which she and Frank Adisson sought the full consent of her competitors, who presumably are enlightened enough to recognise the social and symbolic value of allowing her to take part."

It’s the social and symbolic value that’s the problem.

Plus the "disadvantage" to the wife and children.

There was no unfair advantage - if anything quite the opposite given that she was competing while struggling under the weight of gender dysphoria.
Wtf? Lots of athletes suffer from mental health issues (e.g. Michael Phelps) and it doesn't necessarily adversely affect performance. What a load of guff.

Plus the "disadvantage" to the wife and children.

This ^^

see current thread re Woman's Hour which will be interviewing a woman affected by her husband's transition tomorrow:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3472007-Womans-Hour-today-Monday-7-Jan-on-marriage-after-transition

AAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH

That article is the mind fucking trans bullshit gender stereotype woman demeaning bingo jackpot. There is so much wrong and concerning in every line that it is mindboggling.

In order to set up the interview, two armchairs need to be moved from the ground floor to an upstairs conference room. Before she would automatically have lent a hand; now she demurs bashfully as the photographer and I haul them up the staircase.

I know this comment has already been taken apart, but I really wanted to say to the author, as well as to the person who did the pathetic “demurring” - just fuck off to the far side of fuck with your fucking sex stereotypes, and then fuck off some more. I’m a woman and I’ve been fighting that bullshit my whole life.

Thanks Mumsnetters. I feel better for getting that off my chest.

I’m pretty sure this woman would happily carry chairs up the stairs without any fluttery nonsense.

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-08/polyana-viana-ufc-fighter-beats-up-would-be-robber-in-brazil/10697010?pfmredir=sm

I’m still astonished that these men, who presumably have lived and worked alongside women their whole lives, still only see them through the lens of stereotype. I suppose it’s the weak-kneed submissiveness they really want, not the endurance and resistance of women as they are.

Yes indeed AnyOldPrion. Mad Stereotype Disease (MSD).

“I know this comment has already been taken apart, but I really wanted to say to the author, as well as to the person who did the pathetic “demurring” - just fuck off to the far side of fuck with your fucking sex stereotypes, and then fuck off some more. I’m a woman and I’ve been fighting that bullshit my whole life.”

What's with the ubiquitous pink scarf?

Another delicate little lady here who has no problem lifting furniture.

I'd also question why, if the hormones made their brain into a "lady brain" how did they know they were a lady to begin with?

Have to admit I couldn't finish the article. It was so verbose and just a bit boring.

My first post on this subject was removed and I am not quite sure why as I don't think I said anything controversial. (I read the Talk Guidelines subsequent to the removal). The article was certainly very badly written, purple prose indeed. It did seem to me reading the article that perhaps Wilfred/Sandra was basically a cross dresser at heart but felt becoming a trans woman was now far more acceptable in society than remaining a man and publicly stating his preference for wearing female clothes. I don't know this for sure of course but men who become trans women do get positive publicity around their decision, are lauded for it in fact. What enrages women is the continued sexual stereotyping of women implicit in the portrayal of Sandra as she is now. Come on Sandra, you could have helped with taking the armchairs upstairs without betraying your new femininity. Most women are quite comfortable with hauling articles of furniture and other stuff around you know. It was the whole tenor of the article that grated, got under the skin. There are extremely brave women the world over who need to be lauded and their stories told, such as in The Brave Ones, on another thread. Sandra is obviously not disadvantaged by her change to being a trans-woman which is good. I just don't see the need to have such breathless admiration for her and others like her. It is a personal decision, affecting family, friends etc and should remain in the private domain in my opinion.

Gheerbrant seems to specialise in purple prose as a quote from his article about a swimmer turned swimming pool salesman shows: the male interviewee "raises an incongruously dainty espresso cup to his lips".

I've never seen an enormous espresso cup: the whole point of espresso is that it's small and concentrated and served in a small cup. And where else is going to raise it to? His elbow?

The journalist really doesn't understand (but he seems to know he doesn't). I wonder if he will reflect and try to? from Times comments:

James Gheerbrant, "Sandra hasn't used her transition to gain an advantage, she isn't threatening anyone else's place in society. Her transition has only really affected her and her family. So I don't understand the overwhelmingly negative reaction BTL."

The whole piece is ludicrous and the Times really should ban their journalists from responding on their own comments section - it's unprofessional and doesn't inspire confidence

Her first tweet is diplomatic and the second clearly shows she is escorting him up Mont Trans.

Brilliant. I think this turn of phrase should become part of MN vocabulary. I certainly intend to use it as frequently as possible.

Commenting on the first tweet (I didn't see the second one) from Janice Turner: her comment was gracious and polite.