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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The BBC have just peak-transed the nation

170 replies

MutantDisco · 31/12/2018 18:48

Did anyone see the report on the evening news?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-46634595/should-the-nhs-pay-for-transgender-fertility-treatment

OP posts:
BlytheSpiritsSpirit · 31/12/2018 21:50

The young man who accosted me trying to start an argument in the street about how horrible I am and how much I hate transpeople (no) referred to his hormone therapy as fertility treatments.

People are very confused.

Caucho · 31/12/2018 21:52

I should qualify I’m not talking about lesbian women who suffer from the same fertility issues as heterosexual ones. I’m talking about lesbians who don’t have any fertility issues other than not being interested in men which is the natural order. Should surrogacy for gay men be publicly funded?

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/12/2018 21:53

Well I can get on board with that as long as heterosexual couples aren’t publicly funded either. There is always something better that public money could be spent on than IVF. But to say that het couples can have public money because they would be able to reproduce if both were fertile but that same sex couples can’t have it is really unfair.

BlytheSpiritsSpirit · 31/12/2018 21:54

Should surrogacy for gay men be publicly funded?

Or worse, be seen as a viable job pathway for those on UC....

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/12/2018 21:57

I don’t think public funding for surrogacy is appropriate, no. But I dislike the automatic priority given to the heterosexual family as some sort of ideal. Not everyone is heterosexual and same sex couples and single people are just as capable of being good parents as straight people.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/12/2018 22:00

If you’re going to help straight people to become parents simply because they want to- not because society needs more children born, then same sex couples who want to be parents through the same treatment should have the same rights. The alternative is to fund none of it.

Caucho · 31/12/2018 22:05

I absolutely don’t want to come across as homophobic. I don’t consider myself to be but doesn’t mean I always subscribe to the latest right on liberal narrative. A gay person complaining about not being able to have children is logically the same as a trans women complaining about not being able to have periods. Am I building a straw man? Don’t know. But we’re talking about basic science and biology now. Like I said gay men do have to self fund to have children. I won’t deny lesbians rights to be a parent but the only debate in my mind is whether it’s on the NHS or not

MargueritaPink · 31/12/2018 22:05

You could make the same argument for lesbian couples for Hermoine. That they’re fertile (not all) and that if they choose to ignore biology and not get with a man it’s there look out

But a lesbian couple has the possibility of 2 fertile partners and using donor sperm either from a clinic or a private arrangement. Why is there a need for expensive NHS treatment?

Caucho · 31/12/2018 22:13

Put it this way you can’t dismiss such treatment for trans people and advocate for same sex couples as the logic is the same. I’m very critical of the trans movement and no fan of the new narrative but that doesn’t mean I’ll adopt contradictory narratives according to which group of people I think ‘deserve’ children. As to whether it’s fair that shit heteros can have kids and nice gay ones can’t I didn’t make the rules! I’m not saying it’s fair

Charley50 · 31/12/2018 22:24

Bloody hell just watched the first couple minutes.. Cruella sounds so .. thick.. "oh the NHS has paid for a few things, like surgery" "we should be entitled like everyone else" FFS why are children allowed to make such life-changing decisions without thinking through the implications.

MargueritaPink · 31/12/2018 22:28

Put it this way you can’t dismiss such treatment for trans people and advocate for same sex couples as the logic is the same

Tbh I would not particularly support high tech/ high cost interventions for anyone. I don't support surrogacy for anyone.

Beautifulday49 · 31/12/2018 22:30

I agree with you Marguerita

SeaWitchly · 31/12/2018 23:44

I really didn't get the non-binary person. They apparently don't identify as either male nor female so what exactly are they transitioning to? And why is the NHS being asked to fund their treatment?
I presume they are male sex but want to be known as 'they/them' so neither male nor female. Well great, crack on with that. You don't need female hormones as you are not female via virtue of either sex nor identity. You can, however, present as more stereotypically female if you so desire so crack on with applying make up and enjoying shopping if that is what floats your boat.
Meanwhile, use your male gametes and appendage to build a family if you wish, this may mean impregnating a biological female now or storing sperm for a later time.
This biological man, non-binary person has choices here and I cannot see any justification for society/NHS to swoop in to pick up the pieces of their fertility if they decide to medicate themselves with female hormones Hmm

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/01/2019 00:55

CaptainKirk it’ll be free paid surrogate demanded next, with a lot of coercive demands that women with ovary-privilege and/or uterus-privilege show their support by donating and/or carrying

I can so totally see this.

Verysadpants · 01/01/2019 04:38

My child (ftm, aged 16) is being given testosterone as a treatment for dysphoria, and has been offered nhs egg freezing. Infertility is a side effect of this medical treatment, as it is for some kinds of cancer. I don’t agree with them prescribing testosterone at this age, but it’s not my choice where we live. I’m bloody glad they do the egg freezing. If they must treat what looks to me like a mental health problem with drugs that make my child infertile, then it’s the closest to ‘first, do no harm’. The nhs spends loads mopping up after people’s bad lifestyle choices. Dysphoria isn’t a lifestyle choice.

borntobequiet · 01/01/2019 07:50

Dear God, Verysadpants, how awful for you. Where do you live? (If you are able to say.) I wish I could say I can’t believe this, but unfortunately I can. The fallout from this on a societal level will be dreadful, on a personal level...well, it’s a tragedy.

sashh · 01/01/2019 08:06

Just to add to the crazy has anyone tried to get an NHS sterilisation?

I've never wanted children and had horrendous periods but I couldn't get a sterilisation (I know that wouldn't have stopped the periods) or hysterectomy.

Friend of a friend has 5 children with 4 different fathers, she has been turned down for sterilization because of her age.

So adult women can't choose to become infertile but children can?

OhHolyJesus · 01/01/2019 08:07

I'm so sorry for you and your child VerySadPants, I agree that the NHS spends £££ on people's lifestyle choices and I personally have an issue with cosmetic surgery for that reason. I believe it should be paid for privately and funds should be focused on saving lives. Gender dysphoria is not a lifestyle choice, any more than being gay is, as the NHS does already fund treatment and surgery are they not already doing enough? The freezing of eggs/sperm is not necessarily going to result in a family for anyone so it doesn't protect fertility, it just gives you a chance.
I essentially have a problem with the sense of entitlement and the court case in his news story and I wish you and your child good luck but we do have to look at the broader question of these decisions and who is going to fund treatment when the NHS is crumbling and we all rely on it to help us stay healthy and alive, which is what is was built for.

R0wantrees · 01/01/2019 08:09

My child (ftm, aged 16) is being given testosterone as a treatment for dysphoria, and has been offered nhs egg freezing. Infertility is a side effect of this medical treatment, as it is for some kinds of cancer.

This is the rationale that has been used to secure the infertity protocol that is intended be available to those girls and women diagnosed with cancer and whose treatment (eg gyny cancer requiring surgical removal of ovaries etc and / or chemotherapy).

The infertility protocol for cancer patients is not followed universally due to postcode lottery, the circumstances around time of diagnosis, and sex-based difference in approach is prevelent.

It's not a comparable situation in so many ways.

If (& it is a big if) a person diagnosed with cancer has a referral to fertility services, for females, there is often a critical time issue. Starting a process of egg harvesting may require delay of treatment. Also for some cancers, starting the required hormone treatments requires a consideration of risk. Some cancers are hormone receptive. The person diagnosed is also in a state of trauma about their future.
The consequences of all of these factors will likely mean that though there is a protocol and possiblity for egg harvesting and storage, it would likely be a small percentage of females diagnosed with cancer who go ahead.
Similarly, one has to consider the future reality for those diagnosed with cancer who have stored eggs in terms of whether they choose or are able to go ahead in the future with attempts to then have a child whether through IVF or surrogacy.

There are many differences to the circumstances.

What is clear though is that of all of the patient-led lobby groups seeking parity or improved medical treatments, the transgender lobby stands head and shoulders above all others in terms of effectiveness.

R0wantrees · 01/01/2019 08:12

I've c&p so capitals are from text.
Campaign launched last year by Becki McGuiness 'Cancer & Fertility UK':

"Thankfully I have now been in remission for 8 years but have to live with life long side effects. Early menopause is a hard one to deal with especially as the Gynecologist I had to see for HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) said they could have helped me, if only I had been originally sent to see her.

If only the hospital had a holistic approach for cancer patients.

I am officially launching a campaign for the awareness on #Cancer and #Fertility for all cancer patients called “The Vicious Cycle Campaign” and I’m also using the hashtag 💔 #HiddenHeartache 💔 because it’s something painful that’s hidden in society especially if you’re young and infertile. I want to raise awareness so women know the options available (as it takes longer to save women’s eggs and men usually get their fertility preserved, as it’s quicker) and asking to see a fertility specialist. I would prefer if all oncologists brought up the subject with every patient because for some patients it’s so traumatic finding out they have cancer that they might not even be thinking clearly enough or may forget to even ask about fertility and that’s why I believe they shouldn’t be putting this pressure on the patient to ask because they have so much to worry about already

This is something I am really passionate about. I know it can vary throughout the UK for different women and I want my campaign to make sure there’s equal opportunities for all women and men regardless who their doctor is or area they live in.

I want the protocol to be the same for everyone in the UK rather than being hit and miss for patients or a postcode lottery."

"A STUDY BY ST MARY’S HOSPITAL IN MANCHESTER SAYS AROUND HALF OF FEMALE CANCER PATIENTS AGED 15 TO 39 — ROUGHLY 4,000 A YEAR — ARE INFERTILE AFTER THEIR TREATMENT.
RESEARCHERS ESTIMATE THAT AROUND HALF WOULD VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE NOT TO USE FERTILITY PRESERVATION AND HALF WOULD WANT IT.

FREEZING EGGS, OVARIAN TISSUE OR AN EMBRYO CREATED WITH A PARTNER’S SPERM ACTS AS AN INSURANCE POLICY WHICH MAY GIVE THEM THE CHANCE TO START A FAMILY LATER USING IVF.
BUT IN 2014 ONLY 154 WOMEN HAD THEIR EGGS FROZEN — LESS THAN 4 PER CENT OF THE 4,000 WHO WERE LEFT INFERTILE.
AND A FURTHER SURVEY FOUND THAT ONLY A THIRD OF THE WOMEN WHO DID HAVE TREATMENT GOT IT ON THE NHS.

THE REST ARE LIKELY TO HAVE PAID THOUSANDS OF POUNDS PRIVATELY FOR THE CHANCE TO BE A MOTHER.
STUDY AUTHOR DR YAZAN ABDALLAH OF THE DEPARTMENT OF REPRODUCTIVE MEDICINE AT ST MARY’S SAID: ‘GETTING CANCER IS A MISFORTUNE, NOT A CHOICE, AND SO FERTILITY PRESERVATION MUST BE AVAILABLE ON THE NHS. THERE IS A BIG OPPORTUNITY TO INFORM AND EMPOWER WOMEN — NOT ASK THEM TO PAY... continues

THE RESEARCH, PRESENTED TO A BRITISH FERTILITY SOCIETY CONFERENCE IN EDINBURGH LAST WEEK AND DUE TO BE PUBLISHED IN THE JOURNAL HUMAN FERTILITY, SAYS THAT 77 PER CENT OF NHS FERTILITY CENTRES JUDGE CANCER PATIENTS ON THE STANDARD CRITERIA, DESPITE NICE’S GUIDANCE.
IT SAYS ANOTHER FACTOR IS THAT SOME PATIENTS OR THEIR DOCTORS MAY BE NERVOUS ABOUT DELAYING THE START OF CANCER TREATMENT UNTIL EGGS CAN BE HARVESTED. BUT THE AUTHORS SAY THIS CAN TAKE AS LITTLE AS 12 DAYS IF HORMONES ARE INJECTED TO STIMULATE OVULATION.
THE RESEARCH, WHICH HAS BEEN SUPPORTED BY CONSULTANT DR RAJ MATHUR, ALSO SHOWS A POSSIBLE POSTCODE LOTTERY FOR FUNDING, WITH LONDON AND THE NORTH-WEST OVER-REPRESENTED AMONG THE 154 WHO HAD TREATMENT.
DR CHERYL FITZGERALD, CONSULTANT IN REPRODUCTIVE MEDICINE AT ST MARY’S, SAID: ‘THERE IS A HUGE INEQUITY. MEN HAVING FERTILITY-DAMAGING TREATMENT ARE AUTOMATICALLY REFERRED TO SPERM BANKING.
‘FOR WOMEN, BECAUSE EGG FREEZING USED TO BE LESS SUCCESSFUL AND BECAUSE IT’S A MORE INVASIVE AND TIME-CONSUMING PROCESS, IT’S NOT AUTOMATIC.
‘THE EMPHASIS HAS OBVIOUSLY BEEN ON CURING CANCER, BUT WITH SO MANY PEOPLE SURVIVING CANCER, WE NEED TO LOOK AT IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE AFTER TREATMENT, INCLUDING THE CHANCE TO HAVE A FAMILY.’ ”

cancerandfertility.co.uk/about/

R0wantrees · 01/01/2019 08:19

There are quite a lot of youtube videos with females who take/ are intending to start taking testosterone discussing egg collection with possible anticipation of surrogacy eg:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjG08N7xkUM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMCt2yZr8uA

LangCleg · 01/01/2019 08:47

Tbh I would not particularly support high tech/ high cost interventions for anyone. I don't support surrogacy for anyone.

Same here. And, it is different in the case of trans, where all this fertility preservation will likely hinge on surrogacy, which in turn will lead to pressure for a change in law about commercial surrogacy or predatory tactics in recruiting altruistic surrogates, or both.

QuentinWinters · 01/01/2019 09:01

very Flowers
That sounds very difficult for both of you

Neurotrash · 01/01/2019 11:11

Just to add to the crazy has anyone tried to get an NHS sterilisation?

They're offering it to women in my area after their third (or more) c section.

Neurotrash · 01/01/2019 11:13

Basically doing it at the same tome as the section.

Attempting to get a vbac here is very hard indeed unless you hire a doula or private midwife or speak to a particular random dr who's name I never got but appeared to go against what all the rest said!

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