Reports of Macclesfield pub barring woman for wearing’adult human female’ T shirt

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/blythegetscross/status/1079503093266554880?s=21

Yes a strawman is changing your opposition's argument, usually in terms of exaggerating it, then arguing against that.

Eg, saying the trans ideology aids paedophilia. Refuted with oh my God you're saying transwomen are paedophiles.

But that was separate, really, to my observation that a lot of these people will agree upfront, and then make little conditions. Oh yes, men should absolutely not be playing against women in sport, neither should transwomen. Although there are some exceptions...

It's the agreement of the principle, but the practice is somewhat different.

There are other 'diversion tactics' discussed in the article I linked.

They may be used together by some people to try to control others.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Yes, they are very interesting, well worth memorising.

On this occasion it was because I had actually just been subjected to:

My comment:

It's about paedophiles using the trans ideology.

Being changed to say

cause it appears to be more of the same "accepting trans people helps paedophiles too" nonsense.

On AIBU. It's tedious and runs the risk of derailing while you waste time attempting to set the record straight for lurkers.

Which thread was that?

There's one about twitter hosting paedophiles.

Thanks Datun.

It’s why it’s better not to engage imo but use a comment for example like what to illustrate the verbal abuse at play and then say you’re leaving that interaction because deliberate misconstruing etc

Patricia Evan’s book The verbally abusive relationship details many of the tactics - eg discounting

I know people want to correct the written record for lurkers but if the other party is derailing, they ain’t playing by the same set of rules and will continue to derail. Better to disengage and leave / ignore. Sometimes the weight of numbers helps in here and sometimes it just feeds the trolls who come back for more. My time is short so I choose where to expend it

Just my two-pennath and appreciate the discussion - conversing with all the NPDs that the net gives a voice to is certainly increasing our collective skill

Thanks Eresh & Datun. Clear explanations.

womanformallyknownaswoman Thank you for the book reference.
From Patricia Evans' site (links there to her books, articles & resources about verbal abuse)

'ABOUT VERBAL ABUSE
Verbal abuse creates emotional pain and mental anguish. It is a lie told to you or about you. Generally, verbal abuse defines people, telling them what they are, what they think, their motives, and so forth. The best way to deal with a verbally abusive relationship, whether you are the target of verbal abuse or the perpetrator, is to find out everything you can about verbally abusive relationships and their dynamics. Usually one person is blaming, accusing, even name calling, and the other is defending and explaining.

Most people targeted by verbal abuse try to explain to the abuser why what they’ve just heard is not true or not okay. They explain themselves because they believe the perpetrator is rational and can hear them and the relationship will then get better. Then they usually hear more verbal abuse, for instance, “You’re too sensitive.” At that point they don’t usually realize that they have just been defined, and, therefore, verbally abused again.

Since the target of verbal abuse is often blamed, ignored, or yelled at, s/he may have difficulty recognizing just what is going on in the relationship."
www.patriciaevans.com/

That's interesting R0.

A friend of mine was often criticised by her father. When she reacted she was told that she was over sensitive.

She eventually recognised that she wasn't being over sensitive, that her reaction was rational. It took a while, though. It's incredibly useful to have these guides. Once you realise that a behaviour is a recognised and documented means of control, it's a huge relief. And forewarned...

YY Datun Its interesting reading and important I think in any communication, verbal or online.

You're too sensitive - or the collective FWR slur this is a cesspool of bigotry/vitriol/haters is a huge fucking red flag for me - the discounting at play plus defining my reality, whilst dismissing my feelings at being attacked/smeared is a telltale sign of coercive control at play

the discounting at play plus defining my reality, whilst dismissing my feelings at being attacked/smeared is a telltale sign of coercive control at play

Understanding the features of coercive control eg gaslightling, the use of 'flying monkeys' is really important.

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/communication-success/201707/6-common-traits-narcissists-and-gaslighters

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/coercive-control-how-can-you-tell-whether-your-partner-is-emotio/

extract from article: "So who can become flying monkeys?

There are two different categories of people.

The first category is the naive.

The naive are people who are just clueless. They can’t see it, they can’t fathom it, they’ve never been through anything like that, so they can’t even imagine that somebody would do such a thing to just make up all these lies about you and spread them across town. They just can’t even fathom that a human would do that or maybe the naive is also the fawning type.

This is the type of people who when faced with a fight or flight dilemma, they choose fawning instead where they just melt into into a strong, dominant personality to feel safe and they don’t realize what’s happening. You might have noticed that even you became one of these flying monkeys when you were in your naive state before you woke up, before you figured out what was going on.

The second category of people who can become flying monkeys are the toxic.

These are the people with no boundaries. They love gossip and drama, they’re addicted to that stuff. They have an integrity problem and usually they want something from the narcissist. They want status, they want flattery, they want favours. They’re getting something out of the narcissist, which is why they’re willing to do their bidding." (continues)
medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

Even Breitbart are reporting on the story now. www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/01/08/mother-barred-pub-transphobic-t-shirt/
Surprised where the sympathy comes from? The comments however are a different matter

Fascinating stuff to come back too. And yeah all the alt right media have picked it up. Don't know whether to laugh or cry so I'm going with straight up ignore.

I snuck onto the radio this morning if anyone's interested in me debuting my dulcet northern tones.

cl.ly/62f2a85bfdbf

Badday Great interview, sorry there isn't a pint of craft ale emoji to gift you.

You were great in that interview. Got across what needed to be said
😂😂💪💪💓💓

Brilliant interview. Thank you again.

You were brilliant Rebecca, he got his head around it in the end!

You were very good on that interview badday you really calmly and reasonably explained the issues, and you managed to cover a lot in the time. Thanks for talking about this.

And yeah all the alt right media have picked it up. Don't know whether to laugh or cry so I'm going with straight up ignore.

Freedom of speach is a big issue for the alt-right, and even for the right wing press in the UK, whether we like what they are saying or not.

Posie's genius was to take a dictionary definition, defining a word that has been used since Adam and Eve. Hate speech? The "what is the world coming to" brigade are right to be rolling their eyes. As are we.

badday thanks for posting the link. You were splendid - so clear, confident and articulate.

Great interview chuck.

“all the alt right media have picked it up. Don't know whether to laugh or cry so I'm going with straight up ignore.”

I think the term alt-right has changed its meaning since 2016. I don’t think it really means alternative right anymore. It now seems to mean ethnic-nationalist (old BNP type fascist racist). Breitbart for all their faults are not that, they’re right wing populists.

“Freedom of speach is a big issue for the alt-right, and even for the right wing press in the UK, whether we like what they are saying or not.”

I think political support for freedom of speech and for the gender critical ideas I read on here comes almost entirely from Tory MPs on the right of the Conservative Party and UKIP. In fact the leader of welsh UKIP was actually suspended from the Welsh assembly for the remarks he made about transgender rights www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42343250
I really can’t see the so called TERFs getting any support from the centre left.

Fantastic interview badday, you did really well!