Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's go back to 2007

166 replies

Anlaf · 30/12/2018 00:36

I was having a footle - back in 2007-2008 there were a number of submissions to Parliamentary committee on laws relating to hate crimes, and on extreme pornography.

They are pretty interesting. Shall we have a rummage?

Here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

And here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 20:08

www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/GIRES-Accounts-2014.pdf
2014 Annual report & accounts
GENDER IDENTITY RESEARCH AND EDUCATION SOCIETY (GIRES)
Registered Charity No: 1068137

(extract)
c. In the UK, GIRES has sought the adoption of those standards by serving on the intercollegiate committee, which has published the Good Practice Guidelines, and on the NHS England (NHSE) Clinical Reference Group, which is developing the specifications for gender identity services for adults. GIRES is also currently contributing to the improvement of the service specification for children and adolescents. However, even as standards are improving, capacity within the NHSE specialist gender services for adults has not, overall, kept pace with the continuing growth in numbers. Waiting lists are often much more than a year and worsening. Financial pressures on NHSE are likely to restrict funding for additional capacity. In order to augment capacity and provide the required equity of access to services for gender nonconforming individuals who need treatment, NHSE may consider upskilling GPs so that the less specialist elements of care can be offered locally and more promptly in tandem with the specialist clinics. This would improve the mental health of the individuals who would otherwise be waiting for care and address the risks associated with their obtaining unsupervised hormone medication via the internet. Gender treatments are not part of standard medical training in the UK. GIRES has therefore been working with professionals, trans service users and families to develop e-learning resources for:
 GPs, in collaboration with the Royal College of GPs (funded by GIRES): gires.org.uk/gender-variance
 School nurses, health visitors, Child & Adolescent Mental Health Services, teachers and other providers of care, , as well as families, in collaboration with the Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust (funded by Health Education England): gires.org.uk/caring-for-gender-nonconforming-young-people
Through its membership of the National LGB&T Partnership, GIRES is leading a project to develop a series of factsheets that will inform gender conforming people about practical ways to improve their own health and wellbeing.
The Partnership has published the first seven factsheets and a further series is now being developed:
gires.org.uk/health/trans-health-factsheets

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 20:09

2017 GIRES AGM
attended by Baroness Barker (LibDem & Chair of recent Westminster Policy Forum Next Steps for Transgender Equality

(extract)
'5. Any Other Business
Ben Vincent invited engagement from attendees in the development of their transgender
healthcare book. The meeting closed at 3.33 pm.
Afterwards members discussed three ways to influence government policy. First, NHS England is seeking views, by 16 October, about its proposals regarding gender identity services for adults. Secondly, the Government Equalities Office (GEO) has launched a survey, which runs until 15 October, among LGBT people about their experiences and the improvements they seek in public servicers. Thirdly, the GEO plans a consultation in the autumn on reducing the bureaucratic and medical burdens in obtaining gender recognition.
There was also a concurrent workshop for families of gender diverse people.'

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 20:10

www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/GIRES-AGM-Minutes-September-2016.pdf
2016 GIRES AGM
'The Chair Celia Macleod welcomed members and guests
including Baroness Elizabeth Barker and Dr Helen Webberley to the 18th AGM of the Society'

  1. Any Other Business
None. The Meeting closed at 3.30pm. Afterwards Baroness Barker spoke on Parliamentary and political aspects of current transgender issues and Dr. Helen Webberley spoke on transgender health care as a GP. Other matters discussed included the Report of the House of Commons Women & Equalities Committee Inquiry, Brexit, trans*formation and trans individuals in prison. There was also a workshop for families of gender nonconforming people. Bernard and Terry were thanked for their hospitality and we all clapped when Baroness Barker praised Terry for her great vision and persistence.'
Anlaf · 24/02/2019 20:10

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20000824054109/www.pfc.org.uk/gendrpol/pfc-ws.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Why "Women-Only" space must include trans women

Trans women, whatever their history, live as women, and therefore face the same discrimination, problems and issues as other women. They may have had a particularly rough time and need the support of other women -- some extreme examples being womens' refuges and rape crisis centres. They may be particularly in need of the "safe space" provided by women-only facilities, being generally perhaps more vulnerable to harassment and intimidation from men.

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 24/02/2019 20:18

From back at the beginning of this discussion. Apologies I missed this thread before.

The trans rights movement started with the Beaumont Society

I am interested to hear of the connections between S Whittle and the Beaumont. I have a distant memory from years ago. No idea where from, nor have I been able to find anything other than the recent whitewash. But I have a feeling that in earlier times, the BS was very much a place where well connected /powerful men, who liked cross-dressing liked to congregate.

Oddly enough, the only serious and credible threat that I’ve ever received on Twitter was when I mentioned that fact. I hadn’t put two and two together at that point and of course, the threat had what was perhaps its desired effect - in that it didn’t stop me speaking out, but it did distract me from this particular topic.

Anlaf · 24/02/2019 20:28

Yikes Any. I know little of Beaumont beyond what's in here.

Anyone fancy a Sunday night footle? R0wantrees this might be up your street:

Here is GIRES' website from 2005 - already recommending that adolescent treatment include puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. also has children's handout called "your dad's adventure" which is grimly controlling and ends "and she needs you to love her too"

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20051029231637/www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/frontframeset.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20051029231637/www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/frontframeset.htm

OP posts:
Anlaf · 24/02/2019 20:44

Here you go Any

History of the Beaumont Society here <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/19990221145237/members.aol.com/Bmontsoc/history.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/19990221145237/members.aol.com/Bmontsoc/history.htm

They even had a "transwidows" equivalent support group:
Women Of the Beaumont Society or WOBS is a Helpline operated by women who have personal experience of living with someone who Cross Dresses... These numbers are SPECIFICALLY for wives, partners or family members of someone who Cross Dresses. Cross Dressers PLEASE DO NOT call this number for a 'chat'!. This is not what we are here for! Everyone runs their Helplines from home and are available usually every day including weekends. Try during the day, you may catch one of us ..... but evenings are best. We run the lines on a voluntary basis to fit around our other commitments. We can offer an empathetic and understanding ear with practical advice and information when required

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 20:49

I am interested to hear of the connections between S Whittle and the Beaumont.

LGBT HIstory Month article:
Stephen Whittle
pub March 14, 2011
(extract)
"A leading community organiser for almost 30 years
Stephen’s campaign CV can be traced back to 1973 when he joined the Campaign for Homosexual Equality (still attempting to identify as a Lesbian at that time). In 1974, he co-founded the Manchester Lesbian Collective – a radical group which was involved in setting up the first Manchester Women’s Refuge. He announced that he was a man shortly afterwards and, with the group’s support, contacted other trans people in and around Manchester. Along with others he started the very first support group in the UK for transsexuals and transvestites. The group was to be instrumental in the setting up of the Manchester Gay Switchboard.

In 1975 Stephen joined the Beaumont Society, as a trans man and became co-editor of the Beaumont News, a magazine for what was ostensibly a heterosexual male transvestite organisation at that time. In 1979 he was a founder member of the first UK self help group for transsexual people and has remained involved in all the self-help groups that have come into existence since then In 1990 he founded the FTM Network, a self-help group for trans men which now has over 700 members in the UK, and members from another 20 countries." (continues)
lgbthistorymonth.org.uk/stephen-whittle/

Anlaf · 24/02/2019 20:55

Quite interesting that even in 2000 the Beaumont Society described itself thus We are the longest established Transvestite/Crossdressing support group in the UK

There are heaps of links and resources for cross dressing (lingerie, stocking and high heels). Where did all the "cross dressers" go, according to modern transactivist ideology?

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20001018215942/www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/LinkTVSupp.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20001018215942/www.beaumontsociety.org.uk/LinkTVSupp.htm

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 24/02/2019 20:56

Cabinet ministers? Lords? All quite likely candidates.

Cross-dressing has historically been a rich man’s fetish and very much kept under wraps. It’s not uncommon. Thanks Rowantrees.

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 20:56

from the previous link:
(concludes)
"Stephen’s contribution and place as a leader in this field of social activism is so great that it is hard to list all of his contributions, especially over the last few years. As the pace of advancement for transsexual people in the UK has accelerated, however, it is relevant to focus particular attention upon his involvement in the change process:

In 1999 Stephen co-authored the trans community’s submission to the Interdepartmental Working Group, “Recognising the Identity and Rights of Transsexual and Transgender People in the United Kingdom”

In 2000 he led the trans community’s presentation to the Interdepartmental Working Group. Since then he has contributed extensively to further research by the Lord Chancellor’s Department and the Interdepartmental Working Group. Stephen is one of the four leading activists who liased extensively on matters leading to the successful passage of the Gender Recognition Act in 2004."

BettyDuMonde · 24/02/2019 20:59

The old Northern Concord site is still online. Whittle gets the odd mention (being one of the original, unnamed Manchester Trans group organisers):

www.lgbthistorymonth.org.uk/history/stephenwhittle.htm

www.northernconcord.org.uk/moreinfo.htm\

As far as I am aware, there was an original MCR based TV/TS social/support group from the mid 70s, co founded by Whittle.

That became Northern Concord in the mid 80s, then there was some kind of community split and Northern Concord stopped running the weekly meeting (although it continued it’s mailing list/members magazine/weekend residential events). The weekly Wednesday meeting was taken over by the new ‘Manchester Concord’ circa 2009.

Manchester Concord’s long term cross dressing ‘hostess’’, Mary, passed away last year and the group decided to stop running in a formal way, mostly because the current trans accepting climate rendered it largely unnecessary, and because it was Mary who had kept it going.

There is around 10 years worth of Mary’s blog archived online: manchesterconcord.wordpress.com/category/mblog/

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 21:27

Cabinet ministers? Lords? All quite likely candidates.

Cross-dressing has historically been a rich man’s fetish and very much kept under wraps. It’s not uncommon

& Freemasons?
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/04/two-freemasons-lodges-operating-secretly-at-westminster

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women

Edward Lord City of London Corporation, trans rights & freemasonry
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/30/gender-equality-campaigner-defends-freemason-membership/

reclaimec1.wordpress.com/2018/06/14/edward-lord-the-city-of-london-and-freemasonry/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out-this-covers-Hampstead-Ponds

(pictured)
Edward Lord and their 'old friend' the Speaker of The House of Commons, John Bercow.
(Lord is non-binary and preferred pronouns are they/their)

I'm curious about 'special nomination'

'Freedom by Nomination – Persons of any nationality may apply for the Freedom by nomination. Forms are available from the Chamberlain’s Court and the applicant must be nominated by two sponsors who will be Common Councilmen of the City of London, Aldermen or Liverymen.'
www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/about-the-city/history/Pages/how-to-apply.aspx

Nice response from Florence Nightingale described in the explanatory video :
www.youtube.com/embed/YkQNQhm_geM

John Bercow & trans rights bias:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396169-John-Bercow-sex-pest-ridicules-GC-Women-friend-of-Pink-News-Edward-Lord-who-refused-UQ-about-prison-policy-following-Karen-White-Case-Unconnected

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3298016-John-Bercows-rant-about-Gender-Critical-women

OP, OrchidInTheSun wrote:
"As we thought, Bercow does indeed have connections with LGBT lobbying groups - he is president of the Kaleidoscope Trust'

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-state-has-failed-karen-whites-victims/
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

Let's go back to 2007
Trousering · 24/02/2019 21:50

Amazing thread

This is a Whittle paper - www.socresonline.org.uk/12/1/whittle.html Lots of intersex appropration.

For an unravelling of the intersex and trans activism in the USA, Alice Dreger Ph D is really helpful. She actually is one of the key palyers behing changin the medical abuse of children with disorders of sex development.

www.amazon.co.uk/Galileos-Middle-Finger-Heretics-Activists/dp/0143108115?tag=mumsnetforum-21
On trans she explains a lot about Blanchard and Bailey and the work they did .

Bailey's book (The man who would be Queen) caused a trans meltdown and huge amounts of abuse to him and his family, it's all in Alice's book.

Helen Boyd (author of My Husband Betty) explained what might have motivated some to object to the book:

In the crossdressing community, the man who admits he is turned on by his dressing is still considered a pervert. The autogynephilic transsexual will not receive the same sympathy for her transsexualism as the non-autogynephilic transsexual. That's exactly what makes Bailey's book so dangerous: it allows transsexual women to be condemned by our society for having "perverse" sexual arousal patterns.

In response to such criticisms, Bailey reiterated a line from his book: "True acceptance of the transgendered requires that we truly understand who they are."

If that's the case why are they still lying to everyone?

PencilsInSpace · 24/02/2019 22:02

Now who knew that GIRES was set up as the charitable arm of Press for Change?

Me!

Who knew PfC and GIRES parted ways in 2000, in large part because of the way GIRES treated intersex people and support groups?

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00084.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Relationship of PFC and Gires

Dear Colleagues

With great regret the Press for Change Vice Presidents publish the statement below. We are aware that some people will wish we had taken this decision sooner whilst others will wish we had not taken it at all. It is not a hasty decision, and the publication of this statement has been delayed further because of our efforts to obtain all the facts and to listen to as many points of view as possible. We are grateful for the patience of those who would have liked an earlier decision. In the event it has still not been physically possible to speak to all those affected, but in the circumstances we feel that we have no choice now but to publish first and talk about it afterwards. We would be grateful if everyone would read the statement in full, and we will gladly answer any questions you have. We would like to stress that this decision is intended as a constructive action in a difficult situation and that we do not wish to attach blame to any individual involved.

STATEMENT BY THE PRESS FOR CHANGE VICE PRESIDENTS: 18th May 2000
THE RELATIONSHIP OF PRESS FOR CHANGE AND THE GENDER IDENTITY RESEARCH AND EDUCATION SOCIETY

At the 1996 Press for Change Planning Meeting it was decided to look into setting up a subsidiary charity which would have the mandate of providing education and information about trans issues. As a charity it would be enabled to obtain tax refunds on subscriptions and donations and raise money from sources not accessible to Press for Change (which as an overtly political organisation cannot apply for charitable status in its own right) and it was hoped it could eventually take on - and expand - the.work of Press for Change in the areas of publication of information, education and training, research and support for students.

It was later agreed to establish the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (Gires). Gires was registered as an independent charity in February 1998 with no formal relationship to Press for Change. A separate entity was required under charity law and was thus the easiest arrangement. However almost all the Gires trustees were (and are) also members of Press for Change, and the Charity Commisssion agreed that it would be acceptable for Gires to use the strapline "Working alongside Press for Change ". Later a "contractual service agreement" was agreed between Press for Change and Gires which cemented a close relationship.

In January 1999, GIRES' charitable objects were agreed by its founding members to be:
To advance education into gender identity and intersex Issues, and in particular:
a. To initiate, promote and support research particularly to address the needs of those in whom there is a strong and ongoing desire to live and be accepted as a member of the sex opposite from that assigned at birth;
b. To publish the outcomes of such research and other relevant information in order to inform interested parties and the general public;
c. To enable the public to achieve a wider understanding of these issues and thereby equal treatment within society of those whom they affect.

For many reasons, things have not turned out as originally envisioned.

Gires has never been in any practical sense a "subsidiary" of Press for Change, nor has it restricted its activities to raising money for the educational work of Press for Change. Rather, it has developed into an organisation in its own right with a clear direction of its own.

Because of a policy of trying to draw funds from new sources, rather than from existing supporters of Press for Change (who can and do donate directly to Press for Change), Gires has raised most of its funds from outside the trans community and more than half of its membership consists of non trans people. It has to date been unsuccessful in securing much funding which could be used directly to subsidise the educational work of Press for Change, and responsibility for this must be shared by Gires and by Press for Change, which because of pressure of work has been unable to invest the necessary time into providing Gires' trustees with the direction and information they required. Instead however Gires has set up medical and social "research panels" consisting overwhelmingly professionals who are not trans people. It has also become increasingly involved with policy making rather than straightforward education and research. The nature of the research panels has damaged Gires' credibility as a supporter of the trans community and its involvement with policy has created difficulties as it has strayed into areas in which Press for Change and other groups representing trans people are already working.

Gires' position as an organisation of mostly non trans people could be and at times has been a strength, in that having non trans people support or speak in favour of equality and respect for trans people adds weight to our case. Unfortunately it can also be a weakness if it appears that Gires is exceeding its mandate or is failing adequately to represent or consult with the client group it exists to serve.

In particular we have been alarmed by the recent involvement of Gires in intersex issues, which has caused widespread offence amongst intersex people and the existing groups which represent them. Press for Change regrets this very much. We fully support their right to represent themselves, or not, as they see fit, and have advised Gires to proceed with great caution with any further work in this field.

We have also advised Gires to ensure that any further work they do in representing the interests of trans people to others, especially to public authorities and decision making bodies, is only carried out in full collaboration with other existing groups such as GenTrust, the FTM Network, Mermaids, Change, G & SA and Press for Change, and that we consider it at all times inappropriate for Gires to appear to be negotiating on behalf of the wider trans community, which is in itself already diverse.

The Press for Change Vice Presidents have decided that it is wise at this point to end the current semi-formal link between the two organisations. We believe that this link is no longer of any great benefit to either organisation and has the potential to lead to a serious conflict of interest. We feel Gires needs to be free to pursue its own agenda without formal reference to Press for Change and that our attempts to direct and advise Gires are increasingly leading to friction which is damaging personal relationships and taking time and energy away from the campaign itself. Press for Change, for its part, will no longer be in any way accountable for the actions of Gires. However if current differences of approach can be resolved, we very much hope it will be possible to collaborate with Gires in future, most especially in the areas of research and education where Gires is well placed to undertake some good work.

We hope very much that the separation of the two organisations will free both of them to concentrate on their primary objectives - the achievement of equality and respect for all trans people through education, legislation and social change.

Christine Burns
Claire McNab
Mark Rees
Sarah Rutherford
Alex Whinnom
Stephen Whittle

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 22:22

Has anyone read Christine Burns' recent book?

I imagine that Burns will be very open about the role she played in lobbying and proud of the efforts and strategies.
There are contributions from prominant TRAs
www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-Britain-Our-Journey-Shadows/dp/1783524715?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Let's go back to 2007
Let's go back to 2007
PencilsInSpace · 24/02/2019 22:36

PfC's objections to the way GIRES was attempting to work with intersex groups seem quite different from the objections of the intersex groups themselves.

An <a class="break-all" href="//[[https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00017.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">open letter by Claire McNab of PfC makes clear that the main objection was that GIRES were consulting with medical professionals rather than intersex people themselves. Claire writes as an individual however this seems to be PfC's position as a whole. At least I haven't found anything contradicting Claire's position from anyone else in PfC.

The Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group (AISSG) UK on the other hand, objected to the appropriation of intersex to further the trans agenda. <a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20170117130415/www.aissg.org/15_ANNOUNCE.HTM#14%20May%202000" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Here's their statement in full. This was also posted to the PfC news lists.

14 May 2000 - AISSG UK's 'GIRES Statement'

A Position Statement Concerning GIRES (Bernard Reed) by the Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group UK (AISSG UK):

Introduction

The Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group (AISSG) is a peer information/support organisation established in the UK in 1988 (formalised in 1993) and which achieved UK charitable status in early 1999. We are completely autonomous but are affiliated to the Genetic Interest Group (GIG) and Contact a Family.

We have around 120 subscriber members (and many more contacts) in the UK (mostly adults but many families too) affected by intersex conditions such as AIS, XY gonadal dysgenesis (Swyer's syndrome) and 5 alpha reductase deficiency; with some XX female members who have Mayer Rokitansky Kuster Hauser (MRKH syndrome, Mullerian dysgenesis/aplasia, vaginal atresia etc.

We have representatives in USA, Canada, Australia, Germany, S. Africa and Spain. Our website at www.aissg.org has received much praise, from people with AIS who come across it after years in the wilderness (having not been told about their condition) and from medical specialists in the intersex field.

Summary

After extensive email correspondence with Bernard Reed of GIRES during mid March to early April 2000, we decided not to work with GIRES at the present time. Overall, we wish to disassociate ourselves from GIRES and to state that they do not represent us.

We have already established mutually beneficial relationships with several groups of clinicians and are working with them on AIS-related research projects and the provision of multi-disciplinary patient care. We collaborate on joint projects with other related support organisations (e.g. the UK Turner Syndrome Society, the Anorchidism Support Group) via a consortium set up by the Genetic Interest Group. Within this consortium (set up in 1999) we have recently published a leaflet for clinicians to give to parents on receipt of a 'genetic diagnosis' and have obtained a grant from the Baring Foundation to enable one of the clinical psychologists with whom we work to carry out counselling skills training for the three groups' helpline volunteers. We also work very closely on an informal basis with the UK's Adrenal Hyperplasia Network (AHN) and Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) Group.

We do not foresee that an association with GIRES would follow the same spirit as those above, so do not wish to join forces with Reed. We believe that Reed's desire to change the medical management of intersex, although reasonable in itself, is based firmly on the discourse of gender dysphoria (transsexualism/transgender, often referred to as 'trans') and moreover masks an underlying attempt to exploit physical/biological intersex so as to provide an authenticity to that scenario, an authentication that it doesn't need.

The historical perspective is as follows:

GIRES Approaches AISSG in 1999

Reed emailed us in July 1999 introducing a UK organisation called the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) of which he is chairperson and wanting us to enter into a working relationship with his organisation. We read the hardcopy information that he sent and were put off by several things, but mainly by the fact that:

a) GIRES's heritage seemed to be as a trans, rather than an intersex organisation.

a) Reed seemed to be making a case for trans to be considered as a biological intersex condition. We felt we did not have enough scientific information to know whether this was valid.

While generally agreeing with GIRES's wish to change the medical management of intersex (including childhood 'corrective' surgery), we weren't sure about their claims that transsexualism was "an intersex disorder of the brain" and that the term 'transsexualism' should be abolished and it should be considered as an intersex condition. They also seemed keen on lobbying government to allow birth certificate changes for post-operative transsexuals (not an area of great concern to us, although some of our members would like to have a category of 'I' for 'sex' on official forms/documents in general). It all seemed rather political and we as a group are wary of taking political stances. We did not communicate with Reed further, other than to thank him for his information.

Approached Again March 2000

In March 2000, the person who runs our helpline received a phone call from Reed and, having forgotten about our reservations about GIRES, agreed that he could attend an AISSG group meeting a week or so later.

We emailed him to ask why he wanted to attend and it seemed from his response that he wanted a) to see what happens at our meetings, b) to do a presentation, with slides, on GIRES, and c) to discuss possible joint ventures. We explained that our agenda was already fixed (and full), that our support meetings were not the forum for all this anyway, and asked him not to attend (but suggested we might meet on another occasion). At that time he also urged us somewhat insistently to collaborate with him a) to influence what was to be covered in a TV documentary that the BBC wanted to make for the Horizon series, and b) to form a joint policy, along with the UK's Adrenal Hyperplasia Network (AHN), on what we would all present at a British Association of Paediatric Urology meeting in Sept 2000, to which all three organisations had been separately invited by the association (we accepted our 'invitation to speak' in October 1999). He was also excitedly recommending organisations like the Intersex Society of N. America (ISNA) to us, as if wanting to act as a catalyst between us, and possibly not realizing we'd already been in touch for some years.

The Dialogue Starts

We started asking questions about GIRES's policies and aims, about the nature of its membership and its credentials as a mouthpiece for intersex people. There followed a number of emails from Reed giving information about GIRES and asking for our comments on some GIRES guidelines for the medical management of intersex and on a draft synopsis of the issues that GIRES thought the BBC programme should cover.

Throughout his emails, and in his guidelines/synopsis, Reed would employ the phrase "gender identity and intersex conditions" as a means, it seemed to us, of slipping gender dysphoria into the picture without explicitly saying so. While many of the points in GIRES's management guidelines made sense at first sight in terms of intersex, we were wary of this "Trojan horse" approach to including trans within these recommendations because whatever aetiological considerations might link these, in terms of medical treatment there is a world of difference between purely gender issues and the issues faced by intersex children. We did not comment on the content of the guidelines/synopsis.

We noted several other things during the exchange:

a) Reed wrote that "We don't ask our members what conditions they have" and "I am confident that the majority of our members have no condition at all and nor does any member of their families. I estimate that only 7% of the charity's income is derived from those with a condition or the parents of such persons." It seemed strange for someone representing an organisation so underweight on the intersex side of things to be throwing so much weight around in that sphere.

b) names of well-known researchers and clinical experts seemed to appear 'overnight' against the various topics on further drafts of his 'BBC synopsis'. At least one of them (a consultant gynaecologist in the team at the UCL/Middlesex Hospital, London, who are our main collaborators on research/clinical aspects of AIS) had no idea she was itemised in this way and was quite annoyed; so we surmised that others possibly hadn't been consulted either.

The BBC Approaches Us

Meanwhile, Heike Rebholz at the BBC had already contacted us by email wanting to talk about how we might take part in the Horizon programme. Our understanding was that the idea for the programme came out of recent publicity about the "John/Joan" (or "Money vs Diamond") case, so it was to cover the issue of childhood genital surgeries.

An intermediary (an AISSG member with media experience) reported back that Heike was looking at the issue of 'corrective' surgery in Britain. And that she wanted to know whether the group had any members with 'partial' form of AIS (PAIS) who'd had surgery for a large clitoris/micropenis and now wished they hadn't, or someone who felt the surgery took too much away and left them with loss of sensation. And whether there was a spokesperson from the group who could say what the group's feeling was regarding surgery for so-called ambiguous genitalia - whether it should be left until puberty etc.

Our Response to BBC

We reported back to Heike, via our intermediary, that we didn't know how many of the 30 or so Partial AIS (PAIS) women/children on our list had undergone clitoral reduction surgery, but we knew of some adult PAIS women who definitely had not, and who are quite happy with that state of affairs. We had no contacts who had complained to us about this type of surgery. We had one recent overseas parent contact whose newborn was more or less given surgery without the parents having much say in the matter. The mother had subsequently discovered our group, read "negative things" about such surgery in our newsletter (ALIAS), and become very depressed and angry. We explained to Heike that the overwhelming majority of our contacts (several 100) had Complete AIS (CAIS) for whom clitoral size/surgery is a non-issue anyway.

We told Heike that on ethical, social, philosophical grounds we were against any surgery without fully-informed consent (which meant no cosmetic surgery of this nature on infants/children) and that society should overcome its fear of non-standard genitals rather than forcing infants/children to conform to some 'standard' that is patently contrary to that which Nature actually provides, and that we also saw such surgery as yet another tactic (in tandem with secrecy regarding diagnostic information) in trying to cover up the very existence of intersex.

But we had to tell her that we didn't have the direct experience or voice from our members to qualify us to participate; and that we were more concerned with issues of truth disclosure, lack of emotional support, childhood gonadectomy without informed consent, osteoporosis, poor treatments for vaginal hypoplasia, lack of availabilty of carrier testing etc., issues that would presumably dilute the programme away from the topic of 'corrective' genital surgery.

We Decline GIRES's Call to Collaborate

We also sent the above information to Reed and added that we were uncomfortable with GIRES's blurring of biological intersex with gender dysphoria. We were unhappy about the possibility of a programme that set out to consider the specific question of childhood surgery being turned into one which addressed the wider issues of "gender identity" as represented, partly at least, by gender dysphoria (i.e. a group of people who were never likely to have had genital surgery forced on them in infancy/childhood). We felt that in the same way that we didn't have enough direct experience of the question of childhood surgery, we also didn't have knowledge of any scientific evidence that transgender/transsexualism was a physical/biological intersex condition. We felt that the potential inclusion of trans issues in the BBC documentary carried a risk of confusing the general public even more, the question of childhood surgery being complex enough on its own. We told Reed that we were unable to co-operate with him further on these issues.

The BBC not Swayed by GIRES

We expressed our concerns to the BBC about GIRES muscling in on the planning of the programme in a rather assertive manner. Heike replied, saying she was concerned about this too, and informing us that her agenda was still very much open and that she still wanted to talk with us.

AISSG Withdraws

However, by that time we were so exhausted by the whole thing that we backed off completely. The day-to-day operations of our group are run by only three people, all of whom have busy full-time occupations and who thus have to devote most of their spare time to support group work. In the end we just got fed up with being constantly pressurized by Reed, and found dealing with GIRES an unnecessary distraction when we had many other tasks to address at same time. We decided we were content with the progress our group was making, we were quite capable of speaking up for ourselves, and were building good relationships with clinicians and with other patient support groups, and thereby significantly influencing research and patient care in a more collaborative and less radical manner.

PFC Approaches Us

On 9 May 2000 we received an email from Andrea Brown of "....Press for Change in the United Kingdom which set up the organisation known as the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) approximately two years ago..." asking for our opinion of Reed's activities; and this is what has prompted this statement. We'd like to thank those members of PFC who have showed concern over this matter and given us an opportunity to make our position clear.

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome Support Group (AISSG) UK
www.aissg.org

A number of other patient support groups issued similar statements around this time.

Anlaf · 24/02/2019 22:40

Ooh pencils

Northern Concord seem terribly normal. Look at these definitions of sex, gender, Crossdressing. Practically gender critical!
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20000819091804/www.northernconcord.org.uk/definiti.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20000819091804/www.northernconcord.org.uk/definiti.htm

But it was a group for male born people who dress "en femme" (their words). Why would a transman want to join them?

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 24/02/2019 22:50

Also posted to the PfC news list - <a class="break-all" href="https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20061116120000/www.pfc.org.uk/pfclists/news-arc/2000q2/msg00090.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">statement by the Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia Group:

- Forwarded Message Follows -
From: "andrea brown"
To:

Subject: CAH group statement
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:05:39 +0100 (BST)

Hi Claire, Kathleen and Becky,

Here is the position statement from the CAH group for publication on the
lists.

Andrea

_

Dear Andrea

Apologies for the time taken to reply to your e-mail but the committee have been discussing the issues raised. We have read your message and strongly disapprove of a group such as GIRES proposing guidelines for a group of people for which they have little understanding. As stated to GIRES chairman, Bernard Reed on previous occassions, the CAH Group do not wish to be become involved with GIRES or it's policies.

We do work informally with groups such as Child Growth Foundation, AISSG and Contact a Family plus international CAH groups.

Copied below is our reply to GIRES chairman from our chairperson Sue Elford.

The same response to GIRES from AHN also do not wish to be become involved with GIRES or it's policies. AHN is another CAH support group I work with that provides support via e-mail for those with CAH.

We hope this is of help.

Yours sincerely

Melissa Cull
Adult Support Co-ordinator
CAH Group

& Founder of AHN (Adrenal Hyperplasia Network)

Dear Bernard

Thank you for your e-mail and I have looked at your very well set up and informative website.

However I do not believe there is any real connection between a genetic biological condition such as CAH and people with gender identity problems, such as transsexuals.  CAH is regarded as an intersex condition as many of the girls are born with ambiguous genitalia.  This is usually corrected within the first year of life.

They are genetically female.

We focus on getting information on the condition to families via conferences, newsletters and family support.  Having a chronic medical condition that requires continuous lifelong medication is the hardest fact to accept.  Parents worry about whether their children will reach normal height, will become fat due to taking steroids and whether any illness,  such as the flu, chickenpox or even a cold will endanger the lives of their children.  Gender identity is most certainly not a consideration.

I have spoken to various committee members and we do not believe there can be any benefit in our Groups working together.  I do however thank you for contacting us and wish you luck.

Sue Elford
Chairman
CAH Group
PencilsInSpace · 24/02/2019 23:04

There's a longer 'short history of Beaumont' here:

www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/6971183/a-short-beaumont-history-the-beaumont-society

Trousering · 24/02/2019 23:13

That's interesting Pencils, despite Press for Change attempting to pretend that intersex appropriation was nothing to do with them and something concerning, Whittle still went on to publish that pile of intersex appropriating waffle in 2007. See my early link to his paper.

Does anyone know anything about the co author on that 2007 paper?

Seems like dishonesty is at the core of this at all times.

PencilsInSpace · 25/02/2019 00:32

Does anyone know anything about the co author on that 2007 paper?

Lewis Turner has recently been announced as the new chair of PfC.

There are a couple of links on this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3375587-Press-for-Change

PencilsInSpace · 25/02/2019 00:38

I don't think PfC recognised or gave a stuff about intersex appropriation as such. They were trying to position trans as a type of intersex of the brain.

Their objections were to do with Bernard Reed wanting to work with medics rather than intersex people themselves.

But intersex people didn't want to work with GIRES anyway.

Anlaf · 25/02/2019 07:50

Goodness Pencils this is excellent stuff. I don't think I'd seen such strong disavowals by intersex advocacy groups.

We believe that [GIRES's chair] Reed's desire to change the medical management of intersex, although reasonable in itself, is based firmly on the discourse of gender dysphoria (transsexualism/transgender, often referred to as 'trans') and moreover masks an underlying attempt to exploit physical/biological intersex so as to provide an authenticity to that scenario, an authentication that it doesn't need.

One slightly creaky website used to get shared on here that asked for trans campaigners to stop co-option intersex campaigns - I can't remember which group it was and I believe the site no longer exists.

OP posts:
Anlaf · 25/02/2019 07:53

Great digging

(and co-opting, fucking autochanger)

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread