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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's go back to 2007

166 replies

Anlaf · 30/12/2018 00:36

I was having a footle - back in 2007-2008 there were a number of submissions to Parliamentary committee on laws relating to hate crimes, and on extreme pornography.

They are pretty interesting. Shall we have a rummage?

Here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

And here publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmpublic/cmpbcriminal.htm

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
DistressedAndWorried7845 · 25/02/2019 07:57

Oh wow. 2007?! I was only 13 then. Glad this shit wasn’t mainstream, I don’t think I could have coped going to school while having to swim around in the gender fluid

Anlaf · 25/02/2019 08:31

A lot of this dates back to 80s and 90s distressed, before you were even a twinkle

trousers that S Whittle research piece is v interesting. Compare SW writing in 2006:

For most people, at birth there is no incongruence between their genitals and the gender identity chosen for them by the midwife when s/he pronounces the sex of the baby.

to the Northern Concord group's definitions in 2000:

Gender is expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity. It is how people perceive themselves and how they expect others to behave. It is largely culturally determined

Gender identity refers to a person’s sense of him, or herself as masculine or feminine. The cause of gender dysphoria remains uncertain and may well be a combination of internal hormonal and learning mechanisms in the early environment.

OP posts:
DistressedAndWorried7845 · 25/02/2019 08:38

Anlaf this really has been going on under the cover of... something hasn’t it. I never cease to be amazed at it all these days.

DistressedAndWorried7845 · 25/02/2019 08:38

‘Gender identity chosen by the midwife’ what on EARTH?!

R0wantrees · 25/02/2019 08:47

‘Gender identity chosen by the midwife’

Some TRAs now describe the observation of sex at birth as gender being 'coercively assigned'
Non-Binary Wiki:
(extract)
"Coercively Assigned Gender At Birth (CAGAB). Most people are either Coercively Assigned Female At Birth (CAFAB) or male (CAMAB). Unlike AGAB and GAAB, CAGAB emphasizes that the gender was assigned against the person's will, and implies that the person was abused as a child. People disagree about who gets to say their gender was coercively assigned. Some say only intersex people can call themselves CAGAB, and that the coercion refers to non-consensual practices such as genital surgery given to intersex infants to make their genitals "normal." However, many children who aren't intersex also have a gender role assigned to them by means of coercion and abuse. For example, some parents put gender non-conforming and transgender children through "conversion therapy" to make the children conform to their assigned gender."

nonbinary.wiki/w/index.php?title=Sexes&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Assigned_gender_at_birth

BettyDuMonde · 25/02/2019 08:53

Feeling really sorry for midwives right now. Chose a vocation that in woman centred, ended up coercively assigning gender roles and pissing off ‘men’: www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/atnf98/pregnant_transman_rant_looking_for_advice/

Lamaha · 25/02/2019 09:04

Midwives having to describe their birthing mothers as "men giving birth".
The lunatics are really running the asylum.
I would wish they all rise up en masse and strike against the lunacy, or something. What could they do, realistically? Simply bow down and call these mothers men?
I was thinking that transmen are a little less dogmatic, a little less aggressive than TW but that thread has educated me.

R0wantrees · 25/02/2019 09:12

Midwives having to describe their birthing mothers as "men giving birth".

January 2018 BBC 3
'The Pregnant Dad
Sex Map of Britain Series 1 Episode 6
Dorian has been living as a trans man for five years. But now he wants a baby. Will it be as simple as he hopes to be a pregnant dad?'

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05t66bs

Ereshkigal · 25/02/2019 09:16

I was thinking that transmen are a little less dogmatic, a little less aggressive than TW but that thread has educated me.

Not towards women. It's nice that we get it from both, and men get nothing.

R0wantrees · 25/02/2019 09:20

BettyDuMonde That thread!
So many people oblivious to the fact that ensuring a pregnant woman's full medical medical history is available midvwives is part of good practice and fulfills a duty of care to both mother and child.

BettyDuMonde · 25/02/2019 09:47

I was thinking that transmen are a little less dogmatic, a little less aggressive than TW but that thread has educated me

Apologies for temporary tangent but to circle it back to Whittle, I think that for some ‘identifying as a man’ means ‘acting like an utter shit to women’. Midwives are the ultimate-woman in terms of almost all of them being female, actively wanting to work with women and being trained to work with exclusively female bodies, so in a warped mind, a great target for misoGYNY.

Presume Whittle got involved with Beaumont/founded the original, pre concord Manchester TS/TV group because it was either that or lesbian spaces. Then to prove Whittle’s ‘masculinity’, Whittle role played dominance over the posho cross dressers, to the point that Whittle was dominant, then leveraged that position to lobby for Whittle’s own interest (the GRA allowed Whittle to marry Whittle’s wife and be a legal adoptive parent to their sperm donor children).

Re: the NHS records - the computerised stuff is pretty basic, most stuff seems to be on paper records (my seriously ill daughter/now recovering has racked up two ring binders worth in 5 months, much to all our amusement) so if you can’t access stuff about women’s specific care needs on an NHS number assigned to a person with a male gender marker, what the fuck DO you do? Patient and unborn child’s physical health is the priority - you can’t complain about trans people’s lack of access to health care whilst also insisting the system that exists to provide that care is bypassed.

BettyDuMonde · 25/02/2019 09:51

(obviously Not All TransMen Are Like This 😂)

R0wantrees · 25/02/2019 10:01

I was thinking that transmen are a little less dogmatic, a little less aggressive than TW but that thread has educated me

As Stephen Whittle explained in 2007 interview:

"At one time, we transsexuals were what other people wiped off the bottom of their shoes," he says. This is a man who knows what it's like to lose jobs on the basis of what he is rather than what he could do, a former self-employed builder who took a part-time law degree to further his business interests and then discovered that he could use the law to "fight back", as he puts it, against the injustices he feels have dogged him for most of his life. This is a husband and father who went as far as the European Court of Human Rights so that his long-term partner could be impregnated through artificial insemination and his name could be on their children's birth certificate.

"I'm just a bolshie bastard with an overwhelming desire for equality and justice," he says (continues)

The Gender Recognition Act gave him the chance, in June 2005, to marry Sarah, a psychiatric nurse who has been his partner since 1979. "She and the kids were with me when Prince Charles gave me the gong at Buckingham palace," he recalls. "So was my mum. She said it was the proudest moment of her life."

It seems unlikely that his father would have been as generous, had he still been alive. He was a representative of the old Britain, the old Manchester. "He was very much of the view that girls were girls and women were women," says Whittle. "I remember being on a holiday when I was about 13 and he hit my mother because she came out of the caravan wearing slacks and refused to change back into a dress."

By that time, the family were beginning to prosper, moving to middle-class Withington from the council estate of Wythenshawe. Whittle Sr, having fallen into a vat of dye at a chemical depot, was offered the choice of compensation or a desk job. He took the desk job and, despite being barely literate, discovered a hidden talent for technical drawing. Eventually he became manager of the plant, while his wife became a medical secretary at the Christie hospital. The middle of five children, Whittle envied his brothers but inherited his parents' drive to get on. In later life, that drive was fed by the generous doses of testosterone he persuaded his GP to prescribe. "I became quite feisty," he admits." (continues)
[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2007/apr/17/socialcare.highereducationprofile]]

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 28/02/2019 17:58

Oh God. What a tangled web.

Especially worrying is the research done without a control group.... arrghhh.....

DoctoressPlague · 28/02/2019 22:28

This may be of interest:

challengingjourneys.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/is-spousal-veto-based-on-swiss-cheese/

Is Spousal Veto based on Swiss Cheese?
November 9, 2013 by Helen Belcher

"Last weekend Prof Stephen Whittle posted his legal reasoning why the requirement for spousal consent is important. Stephen is a professor of law, and his credentials in terms of campaigning for the rights of trans people are impressive, to say the least.

After an event in July, Stephen, Jacqui Gavin (of a:Gender) and I sat down in a small cafe in Westminster, where Stephen started outlining the thoughts he has now expressed in his blog."
(continues)

a:Gender is the civil service network responsible for the Workplace and Gender Reassignment guide currently being discussed in the Civil Service Trans Policy thread.

Website: www.agender.org.uk/
"a:gender is the inclusive support network for staff in Government Departments and Agencies, covering all aspects of gender reassignment, gender identity, gender expression and Intersex."

Again, that conflation of transgender and intersex.

R0wantrees · 06/03/2019 16:17

Seems the policy consequences in The Civil Service of Stephen Whittle, Helen Belcher and Jacqui Graham's coffee and chat are now being realised and challenged.

Current thread:
OP DoxxMeTwice wrote:
"Civil Service Trans policy - what can I do?
Following an awful "workplace inclusion" meeting today I was prompted to check out my work policy for Trans (link below).

I work for the Civil Service ( name changed, as I was previously doxed and can't risk it here).

Page 31 is particularly bad, I feel like it implies that any woman who objects to sharing single sex facilities will be disciplined for being discriminatory.

This policy is clearly being put into practice as during my meeting today it was discussed that a Trans Woman was left hurt and embarrassed recently after a woman did an immediate u-turn out of the toilets when she saw them. It was stated as a gentle warning to others to consider trans feelings.

The woman's feelings were not considered at all, though I expect she has probably since been vilified in her local office!

Does anyone have any real life examples of policies like this being successfully challenged by using EHRC/Equalities act??"

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/503663/Workplacee_GuideCSEPP_revisedFinall_V1_.pdf

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3520371-civil-service-trans-policy-what-can-i-do

R0wantrees · 13/03/2019 19:32

BettyDuMonde wrote:

"I also found 66 pages of Christine Burns (Stephen Whittle’s Press for Change co founder) complaining about trans services (2006)

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Health/Essays_In_Trans_Healthcare.pdf

Looks like Barret has changed his mind between 2009 and 2015 - or had some other, undisclosed motivation for supporting Jones (Jones’ victim worked in a transvestite shop so I suppose it can be argued that it wasn’t POGD in Jones’ case - Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria).

Perhaps Barrett has reached Peak Trans?"

from link above by Christine Burns:
'Echoes of a Bygone Age'
First Published 20th November 2004
(extract)
"The Parliamentary Forum only meets 2 or 3 times every year. Its strength, however, is that it provides a uniquely strong forum for expert stakeholders from all sides in this field.
Meetings are regularly attended by a healthy contingent of well known practitioners... people like Russell Reid, Kevan Wylie, Domenico de Ceglie and Richard Green are regulars... along
with Dr Joyce Martin, a retired GP who is also a trans woman.
Alongside them sit the leading faces in trans campaigning and support .. including Stephen Whittle, Claire McNab, Tracy Dean, people from groups such as the Gender Trust, GIRES...
and myself.
Then there are specialists in particular areas, such as equal opportunities, policing and nursing.
Last, but not least, there are the MPs who get along regularly too... with Dr Lynne Jones MP in the chair. Very often Dr Evan Harris MP manages to attend too... or sends one of his researchers.
(Evan Harris is a significant figure in this, as he was Liberal Democrat Health Spokesman until recently, when personal circumstances forced him to scale down his commitments).
To get such a broad church to agree on a very detailed document is no mean feat. It has taken literally years... and has come down to a sentence by sentence reading ordeal over the last few meetings of the forum, as all sides managed to agree forms of words to describe the detail and aspirations of trans people's care to mutual satisfaction." (continues)

cont..
"In the middle of his leaked memo Dr Barrett takes issue with a statement in the Funding Guidelines draft which says quite clearly that "Transsexualism is not a Mental Illness".

This is quite a significant point to get clear of course... principally because if the condition were a mental illness then surgery, whilst perhaps mitigating the symptoms, would not be expected to effect a "cure". We would all still be, to put it bluntly, mentally ill... and potentially unfit to hold our jobs and roles in society as a result.
Fortunately the Government doesn't think we are mentally ill. It has said so in its policies ... after getting to know some of us in far more depth than the average psychiatrist!
In fact the Government is quite unequivocal. It says, [Transsexualism] "is not a mental illness. It is a condition considered in itself to be free of other pathology (though transsexual people can suffer depression or illnesses like anyone else)."
[See www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/transsex/policy.htm ]
Dr Barrett thinks differently though. He says in his leaked memo,
"It would seem to me that it is by definition a mental illness since it is a diagnosis currently appearing in the ICD 10 in the Mental Illness Section" (continues)

from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3531873-Searching-for-expert-statement-re-male-prisoners-seeking-transition

R0wantrees · 20/03/2019 22:34

Interesting perspective from 40 years ago.
H/t Funkaccino for sharing:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3538513-I-think-youll-all-find-this-interesting

Male and Female Created He Them
By THOMAS SZASZJUNE 10, 1979
IN the old days, when I was a medical student, if a man wanted to have his penis amputated, my psychology professors said that he suffered from schizophrenia, locked him up in an asylum and threw away the key. Now that I am a professor. my colleagues in psychiatry say that he is a “transsexual,” my colleagues in urology refashion his penis into a perineal cavity they call a vagina, and Time magazine puts him on its cover and calls him “her.” Anyone who doubts that this is progress is considered to be ignorant of the discoveries of modern psychiatric sexology, and a political reactionary, a sexual bigot, or something equally unflattering." (continues)

concludes:
Miss Raymond quotes a Casablanca surgeon, who has operated on more than 700 American men, characterizing the transsexual transformation as follows: “I don't change men into women. I transform male genitals into genitals that have a female aspect. All the rest is in the patient's mind ".

Not quite. Some of the rest is in society's “mind.” For the fact is that Renee Richards was endorsed by Billie Jean King as a real woman and was accepted by the authorities monitoring women's professional tennis as a “real woman.” This authentication of a “constructed female” as a real female stands in dramatic contrast to the standard rules of Olympic competition in which the contestants’ bodily contours count for nothing, their sexual identity being based solely on their chromosomal makeup.

Miss Raymond has rightly seized on transsexualism as an emblem of modern society's unremitting — though increasingly concealed — antifeminism. And she correctly emphasizes that “the terminology of transsexualism disguises the reality ... that transsexuals ‘prove’ they are transsexuals by conforming to the canons of the medical‐psychiatric institution that evaluates them on the basis of their being able to pass as stereotypically masculine or feminine, and that ultimately grants surgery on this basis.” The “transsexual empire” is thus a Trojan horse in the battle between the sexes, helping men to seduce unsuspecting women, or women who ought to know better, to join forces with their oppressors.

Still, why should anyone (especially feminist women) object to men wanting to become women? Isn't imitation the highest form of flattery? Precisely herein lies the “liberal” sexologists’ betrayal of human dignity and integrity: They support the (male) transsexual's claim that he wants to be a woman — when, in fact, what he wants is to be a caricature of the male definition of “femininity.” What makes transsexual surgery a male‐supremacist obscenity is the fact that transsexing surgeons do not perform the operation on all clients (just for the money) but insist that the client prove that he can “pass” as a woman. That is as if Catholic priests were willing to convert only those Jews who could prove their Christianity by socially appropriate acts of antiSemitism. Janice Raymond's analysis is bitterly correct. The very existence of the “transsexual empire” is evidence of the persistence of our deep‐seated religious and cultural preju‐dices against woman.

The war between the sexes is a part of our, human heritage. It's no use denying It. If that war ever ends, it will be not because of a phony armistice arranged by doctors, but because men, women and children will place personal dignity before social sex‐role identity."

www.nytimes.com/1979/06/10/archives/male-and-female-created-he-them-transexual.html

MsTiggywinkletoyou · 21/03/2019 01:24

I saw this thread's been revived, and wanted to add re John Bercow: he and his wife Sally have given interviews about their eldest child Oliver having autism. J&S are or were involved in charities such as the National Autistic Society and Ambitious about Autism. Therefore it seems fair to assume that they know about the changing patterns of diagnosis of girls with autism spectrum disorder. They may or may not be up to speed on the overlap between girls with ASD and ROGD.

Ereshkigal · 21/03/2019 09:08

So spot on, from 40 years ago. I can see why Raymond drives TRAs incandescent with rage.

R0wantrees · 08/04/2019 13:58

important current thread with links to four Times articles highlighting serious Safeguarding & Duty of Care issues concerning the treatment of children questioning their gender identity. The roles played by GIDS Tavistock, Mermaids, GIRES & Gendered Intelligence are criticised by medical professionals:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3553935-Times-article-calls-to-end-transgender-experiment-on-children

R0wantrees · 16/04/2019 12:08

16/4/2019
Unherd article by Julie Bindel:
'The birth of the transsexual empire
One woman saw the trans bullies coming'
(extract)
“Transsexualism has taken only twenty-five years to become a household word,” reads the opening line of the 1979 book, The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male. The author, Janice Raymond, a renowned academic and feminist campaigner, caused a massive kerfuffle when she published the work, which seriously tackled the theory and consequences of diagnosing the feelings of body dysphoria and the unbearable desire to live and present as the opposite sex.

Raymond wrote TTE as a response to the rising rates of sex-change surgery in the US. She had long been concerned about the medical practices that negatively impacted women, such as unnecessary hysterectomies and caesareans. This led her to question the medical consequences of the bodily mutilation inherent in transsexual surgery, and the detrimental effects of taking lifelong hormones.

She predicted that the handful of gender identity clinics treating adult transsexuals – the first of which opened in 1967 – would become what she calls ‘sex role control centers’ for so-called deviant female and male children. “Such gender identity centers are already being used for the treatment of designated child transsexuals,” she wrote, before arguing that these centres would proliferate.

There are now at least 40 such clinics treating children’s ‘gender dysphoria’ in the United States, and in England there are seven treating adults, and only one at present that specialises in under 18s, but with calls for more. This is in spite of concerns about the effects that such treatment might have on individuals legally considered too young to make most major life decisions.

Small wonder, then, that 40 years after it was first published, TTE is perceived as an important foundation stone in gender critical feminist thinking." (continues)

concludes:
Four decades ago, Raymond saw how in a society obsessed with gender rules which determine how women and men should behave, that it would become easier and more acceptable to change bodies rather than behaviour. Did she also foresee how aggressive and demanding trans activists would eventually become, where ‘mis-gendering’ a trans person can be treated as a ‘hate crime’ and reported to police?

“Yes” she tells me. “I always suspected that transsexualism would change women’s lives in a way that would attempt to define us out of existence.”
unherd.com/2019/04/the-transsexual-empire/?=sideshare

Let's go back to 2007
Outanabout · 08/06/2019 21:31

This thread is a deeply upsetting read, you just feel like throwing your hands in the air and giving up. I thought things were improving for women, then you find that all the time people were conniving behind the scenes to push us back down to the bottom of the heap - and not even being allowed to occupy that lowliest spot, because we have cis-privilege.

Back in the first few posts, that description of the six foot carer and the old lady, how could anyone read that and think the carer was the poor vulnerable person in the situation? Why would you allow that person anywhere near a frail elderly person?

barringtondolby · 09/06/2019 00:49

This reply has been deleted

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OvaHere · 09/06/2019 01:14

This thread is a deeply upsetting read, you just feel like throwing your hands in the air and giving up. I thought things were improving for women, then you find that all the time people were conniving behind the scenes to push us back down to the bottom of the heap - and not even being allowed to occupy that lowliest spot, because we have cis-privilege.

I agree, it's disturbing to know just how long it's been in the making, mainly out of view via networking and backroom deals.

Now it's out in the open though it can be challenged and certain aspects are getting a lot of light shone on them.