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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Radio 4 - 'cis' people who are 'safe in the world'

82 replies

MsMcWoodle · 29/12/2018 07:53

So angry. Just woke up to a discussion with Travis Top shop let me change with 12 year old girls or I'll scream and scream till I'm sick and some handmaiden writer. The whole thing was awful, one sided, and not challenged in any way by the presenter.
The real gem was when the handmaiden was talking about the duties of 'cis' people who are apparently 'safe in the world'.
Why was this left unchallenged?
Can anyone be so clueless that they do not realise women are NOT safe in this world. It's not even 8am and I want to tear my hair out.
Good morning.

OP posts:
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 29/12/2018 09:24

And the man explaning about periods? That was comic gold.

R0wantrees · 29/12/2018 09:26

Travis also referred to Italian gender non-conforming people 'as late as 20th century' (Femonella?) were seen as 'heightened in their society' for their gender identity.

The idea that being transgender represents a heightened/superior state of existence was articulated by Della Aleksander in 1970's documentary:

OP Sunkisses wrote
"I did a search of Mumsnet and couldn't see any other posts about this extraordinary 1973 discussion show which was produced by transsexuals 45 years ago where they were given free-reign, free from editorial control. Four transsexuals are joined by a psychologist and an MP.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player

Where to start? Maybe with the show's producer and host, Della Aleksander, who is the most bizarre of all the participants. Della starts by claiming that a "chastened and wiser" Adolf Hitler and Queen Victoria have said, through a medium, that "there was a special role for me, in the reconstruction following a world wide collapse in 1978-79". Della also claims to have been sent from another world where the sexes don't exist and that transsexuals are the only model of a "higher race"! Della also claims to have founded the neo-Nazi sounding European National Movement in South Africa whilst serving in the Army there (I couldn't find any info on them, but they sound well dodgy to me).

Della also seems utterly confused, mis-using the terms 'bisexual' and 'intersex', and appearing to think these words mean transsexual, and that the appearance of nipples on a man means 'we are all transsexuals'. Della is, thankfully, corrected by the psychologist at 33.53 mins in who states that it is important to use the correct terminology, but Della wafts such trivialities away by saying "I don't want to get bogged down in medical questions". The MP, Leo Abse, argues against the 'trans umbrella' (before this term was invented by Stonewall etc) at 36 mins in.

There is clear evidence of autogynephilia (AGP - the sexual fetish of a man loving himself as a woman) at 33.23 when Della says the "sex act" is a "transsexual one", as "one attempts to become and absorb the beloved".

At 26 mins in one of the speakers, Rachel Bowen (the working class northern transsexual with dark hair), says that having a female birth certificate is a "status symbol". Another of the transsexuals, Laura Pralet, at 27 mins preposterously claims that "we are not a minority", and "I have never been a homosexual", even though Laura lives with and has married a man. Laura also says their husband is never happier when they are "in the kitchen", and at 31 mins in says they wanted to become a woman as "women have the best deal anyway".

It's absolutely fascinating and well worth a watch."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327193-BBC-Open-Door-programme-45-years-ago-on-transsexuals-a-real-jaw-dropper

^Della Aleksander is described as being influential to Stephen Whittle when a schoolgirl: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Whittle^

Ereshkigal · 29/12/2018 09:30

(I'm sure I saw a stat on twitter of 8 in the uk over Christmas?

Yes, I believe so.

UnrelentingFruitScoffer · 29/12/2018 09:30

Radio 4 values what it thinks is fairness above common sense and reality. This is just the latest example of how wrong that attitude is.

Iused2BanOptimist · 29/12/2018 09:31

The cis word makes my blood boil every time I hear it. I'm going to write to the BBC/Radio 4 and tell them in no uncertain terms they should stop using it as it insults half their listeners (if they actually know what it means, Jane Garvey having done sterling work pointing out that many people don't know what it means).
I really really object to this word being inserted into common usage.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 29/12/2018 09:40

Just checked twitter - Jean said 8, so that’s good enough for me.

And in other ‘news’... What, eh, how? Whoa - can someone explain that one?

Radio 4 - 'cis' people who are 'safe in the world'
RedToothBrush · 29/12/2018 09:41

What makes you 'safe in the world' as a woman?

Just reflecting on the language which reveals much about the life experience (or lack of) of someone saying there are no conflicts over the rights of women and the rights of trans people.

StarJazmin · 29/12/2018 09:42

Ha, gender is indeed given to us. By society, not birth.

Lol, amen to that sister. And you don’t have to accept it, either. Reject it and live free from stereotypes. That’s what radical feminism is all about! Transgenderism seems to be about accepting and embracing stereotypes, judging your personality and preferences in relation to them, demanding everyone else treat you as a stereotype and deny sex-based reality because it doesn’t fit.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 29/12/2018 09:44

So she feels safe as a woman but not as a racial minority? Has she ever been groped or followed or god forbid sexually assaulted? Would she think that it was because she is black or a woman? And the assumption was that only white people are racist.

terryleather · 29/12/2018 09:48

Saw this the other day and it seems prescient...

Gentlygently · 29/12/2018 09:49

I thought it was quite good when the interviewer raised (gently) how it was slightly ludicrous that Travis may feel ‘unsafe’ in the studio.

nauticant · 29/12/2018 10:04

Yes, that was a remarkable comment. The guest editor Chidera Eggerue said she'd made sure to sit in on the interview with Topshop Travis in order to provide him with safety. This was so that Travis would feel safe while being interviewed by Martha Kearney, that well-known dangerous person.

Can you imagine just how much validation that would have given Travis?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 29/12/2018 10:06

Maybe just to make sure that Travis didn’t say anything inflammatory? Controlling? Bossy? School ma’amish? Someone has a high opinion of themselves and loves control.

R0wantrees · 29/12/2018 10:11

This was so that Travis would feel safe while being interviewed by Martha Kearney, that well-known dangerous person.

cf Bex Stinson (Head of Stonewall's Trans Inclusion) who felt 'unsafe' being interviewed live in the Woman's Hour studio with Helen Lewis and Jane Garvey:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3428918-Womans-Hour-Tues-20-11-18-Why-is-the-current-debate-about-sex-and-gender-so-often-called-toxic-we-hear-from-Bex-Stinson-and-helenlewis

Neurotrash · 29/12/2018 10:13

Miley is gender neutral???

Fuck off.

ChewyLouie · 29/12/2018 10:14

The vulnerable, fragility card is being played incredibly well by any man who wants his will imposed on society. They use women’s spaces to protect themselves from other men and use women to protect themselves from other women. Enforced third spaces have to be the only way forward- or do they need protection from other kindly trans folk too 😢
This leaves the actual vulnerable people in society voiceless. Who is going to protect the vulnerable from transpeople??

hackmum · 29/12/2018 10:29

It's rather ironic that Travis's comments on the Today programme about how unsafe trans people are came the day after the edition edited by Angelina Jolie, which was all about the widespread problem of sexual violence against women and girls. Try telling a 15-year old girl in the DRC who's been raped with a broken bottle that she has "cis privilege".

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/03/highlighting-rape-in-congo

userschmoozer · 29/12/2018 10:34

Two women a week.

I think this has to be the standard response to Travis from now on.

Mariotta · 29/12/2018 10:42

I think there are a great many "cis people" who were doodling along, feeling perfectly safe in their living rooms, only to be assailed by the voice of Travis, via Radio 4, for no good reason at all.

If we're not safe from Radio 4, when are we safe?!

Knicknackpaddyflak · 29/12/2018 10:52

Travis finds it 'so difficult to hear the debate' which includes women's reluctance to share changing space with males as this is 'tangential' to their existence.

It's not the job of women to validate Travis, or nurture Travis's sense of self, or to meet Travis's needs in any way. Travis needs to take responsibility for themselves like every other competent adult has to. Travis also needs to figure out why Travis believes that Travis's needs and feelings are more important than those of all women, and that its fine to expect women to get over those feelings, but absolutely not to expect that Travis does. Or that Travis has no reciprocal responsibility towards women of any kind, while expecting women to prioritise Travis over themselves.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 29/12/2018 10:54

Travis also needs to learn the basic social skill of respecting other people's boundaries.

ChewyLouie · 29/12/2018 10:56

I hope Chidera gave poor cowering TW a signed copy of her book ‘What a time to be alone’ while they were holding hands in the studio. ‘She’ll show you that being alone is not just okay: it’s just about the best freaking thing that’s ever happened to you’ 😂

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 29/12/2018 11:04

What’s the story with travis them?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 29/12/2018 11:05

And why does non binary seem to mean ‘I want access to female spaces because I’m not comfortable in male ones but i have male anatomy’?

ScipioAfricanus · 29/12/2018 11:10

Where are all these safe women? I’ve never met one.