A Trans Woman Was Asked To Leave The Women's Changing Room At A PureGym

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

A Trans Woman Was Asked To Leave The Women's Changing Room At A PureGym

Exclusive: The woman was told that "no men are allowed" in the women's changing room after gym staff received a complaint from another member.

www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/puregym-trans-woman-changing-room

How long until the backlash forces a change in policy do you think?

Still a great, big, huge, massive No to male bodies in women's single-sex spaces.

And also, importantly - and thank you to NewWomensMovement for this, at the end of the previous page:
Gender is bullshit and meaningless and has no place in the word of the law.

it's been able to be manipulated.

With Sarah Brown's involvement, I'd argue the destruction of women's sex based rights was designed in, rather than being a well-intentioned but subsequently manipulated flaw.

Gender Dysphoria is a significant life altering and debilitating condition

The phenomenon of dysphoria related to one's sex could be explained without using the meaninglessly reified notion of gender.

The issue of exceptionalism is a recent one. The GRA and EA were about transsexuals. It is only now we have the transgender umbrella and it is being seen that TS are asking to be seen as the exceptions within the TG group. The TG umbrella has swallowed the TS identity with their own twisted agenda and understandably women are saying that since it is impossible to tell good TS from anyone else exceptions can't be made; but agree with content or not TS people have certain rights.

Yes, rights which are in conflict with women's rights. The exceptionalism isn't just about asking us to differentiate between TS and TRAs, it literally asks us to allow some male-bodied people into women's spaces. The fact that some older TS only use disabled toilets or don't do sports is irrelevant - you're there and your access leaves the door open to everyone.
Would you mind defining "good TS"? Some TS are TRAs, and your personal red lines re which women's spaces you should use aren't the law. I think Kay said that she has no intention to go back to using the gents. Is that reasonable? Debbie has said that she uses the women's in her workplace as her colleagues don't object, but it does create a precedent. What if another male colleague transitions but women don't feel as comfortable around that person?
The case-by-case approach doesn't work.

From cant in this thread rights already given to TS people in 2004 and 2010

And NewWomans The EA was sneaky - sold as streamlining but in fact taking away women's rights which cant counters with it’s still law though

My questions:
when these laws were written (under the radar as helpfully pointed out by Stephen Whittle) were most / all TS aware, or consulted?
if aware did you applaud them?
did anyone stop and think to ask women what they thought about loosing sex based segregation and rights and the knock on affects?

If you were aware of the laws being promoted or passed, and you did nothing, is it not a little bit too late to now ask women to help you fix the mess these laws have created for you?

Obvs we will fight to fix the mess these laws have created for women.

In this case the argument seems to be more, ally with us or you'll be stuck with them.

That's not an alliance, it's a protection racket.

Gender is bullshit and meaningless and has no place in the word of the law. Agreed.

And no men in women's gym changing rooms, or any other woman-only space. Dim, 唔係, yok hayır, net, well, nah, nope, not on your nelly, never, no not even you, non. No.

And yes, everything Materialist said (much better than me )

Fact is and irrespective of yours or my opinion on the subject the EA 2010 says that in certain situations men are permitted to use women only spaces. Saying no requires section 7 of the EA to be repealed.

In certain situations. Let that penetrate - in certain situations. We see you.

Yes, we do see you. You stand out like a sore thumb!

And again: No to male bodies in women and girls' single-sex spaces.

No.

Sometimes people fight the wrong enemy, but then, one can only fight an enemy who is available.

In the town where I was living when I was about 15, there was a huge young man who was wittily called " Big LXXXn" .He was massive, and dangerous to know. Scarey. His older brother was called " Little LXXXn". This was A Good Name, as he was small , and weedy. Not very scarey at all. Big LXXXn was in the habit of persistently beating up any young men who "looked at him funny", or who might be potential rivals, should they be lucky enough to live that long.

Usually, the favoured response to a painful interaction with Big L action was to go down town, find Little L, and give him a good kicking. Little L was available. This is all hearsay, of course, but one heard people say it.

The way the few TS women who cower in the corners of these feminist threads, smiling nervously and occasionally twitching and ducking are treated ( by some, not all) reminds me of the Big LXXXn/ Little LXXXn situation. We represent Little L. We are clearly not a threat, but we are here and available for a really good, spirited, kicking.

This little story is designed to deliver a gentle message. Not to insult, or to stir up anyone. People don't like us. We are not always sure we like ourselves all that much, actually. So we are OK-ish with it, and we understand. But there are far more dangerous people out there.

the EA 2010 says that in certain situations men are permitted to use women only spaces

In other words, in certain situations it is lawful to mislead women and girls into believing they are accessing single sex spaces, when they are in fact accessing a mixed sex space, because this dishonesty benefits an individual male.

Not a good law from where I'm sitting.

Still a No.

No men in women and girls' single-spaces.

No.

And no to increasingly odd attempts at manipulation too.

Before really reaching I recommend doing some stretches, if it's a thing one plans on doing regularly.

Should have said, "women and girls' single-sex spaces", there! Tis late!

Still No to male-born persons in women and girls' single-sex facilities.

Is it wrong of me to wonder, if people with penises, being so active/vocal in this discussion, is in itself indicative of the sort of validation seeking behaviour, exhibited when men insist on using female changing rooms, when there's a third safe space available..?

"In this case the argument seems to be more, ally with us or you'll be stuck with them.

That's not an alliance, it's a protection racket".

The most common ground between true gender non conforming males, and females, is a simple one. Fear of "men", and what they might do to us or our children etc. We'll have their backs if gender non conforming males decide to fight back against the patriarchy, start a revolution akin to the trouser or mini skirt booms... You could think of it as like teaching a person how to fish.
Old school transexuals, cross dressers, drag queens etc, borrowed our fish from time to time, back in the day, didn't take the piss, always replaced it, but things have changed. It's like TRA's want to just take our fish and run, iyswim? Take, take, take, and no real give..?

We are clearly not a threat, but we are here and available for a really good, spirited, kicking.

On mumsnet people can face pretty robust opposition sometimes. This board is actually pretty tame on that front, but telling women what their priorities should be is not going to go down well. Males, in particular, may find the lack of women's deference to which they are accustomed (probably unconsciously) bewildering. It is a bit tedious to keep going on about personalities though- some posters you don't know if they are male or female, young or old, what they do for a living -and the conversation can keep happily chugging along without incident.

It's still a no from me.

Not so long ago I felt differently. I'd have said 'come in you poor downtrodden TS men'. Then I fell through the radicalisation portal (which largely meant doing a lot of reading), and I discovered how ignorant/entitled/oblivious to women's experiences so many 'gender NC men' are. I also finely tuned my female socialisation radar to include my needs.

And this totally cemented my view that sex segregation is absolutely essential. No degrees of what if hormones?, what if 30 years living as TS?, what if surgery?. Nope. Men need to educate each other to be more accepting and empathetic. Not our party, not our problem to sort out. End of.

"wearing our faces"; this powerful phrase was used earlier, and it just sounded as if it had had a life at some earlier time. I asked it's origin, and was ridiculed for assuming that it could not have simply originated with the woman who had used it on this thread..... Mr Google suggests that the same or very similar phrases are associated with a song by the Dells, and with a concert by Steve Hackett. I'd expected to find it in such as the work of Sylvia Plath.

There’s only so many possible phrases in the English alphabet. I wouldn’t assume that because a poster used a phrase that somebody else, somewhere, had come up with sometime, she hadn’t come up with it independently.

English alphabet? I think I meant vocabulary. Or just language.

Shouldn’t post before coffee.

So set ups like this gym has would preserve the safety, dignity and privacy of everyone. It maintains sex segregation and trans women or trans men who are either uncomfortable in using the men’s or women’s facilities respectively or who don’t want to out themselves can use the third space. Individual cubicles in third spaces would preserve privacy.

In this instance, validation was more important than anything else, or the person in question would have used the private cubicle, but how do we point out that this is a viable solution? I know it’s not necessarily a fight for women to take on but if it achieves - not maintains - sex-segregated spaces, does it become something worth pursuing? (I know this compromise has been rejected by many trans people but is it the general population that needs convincing?)

No to male bodies in women and girls' single-sex spaces.

Adding my voice to the above, in Arabic: laa.