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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sally Hines is writing female out of feminism- I'm terrified

167 replies

CrazyToast · 16/12/2018 14:48

I've just seen this on twitter. 'Female' is only something anti trans people say and is not relevant to feminism. What if feminism becomes undermined too? Are they trying to take our only weapon and safe place? Why try to take away the biological needs of women rather than add those of trans women? How can this person think they are qualified and justified in re-defining feminism to exclude something fundamental to the majority of women?

My blood ran cold when I saw it because Sally Hines is an academic receiving a lot of funding to do this research.

Sally Hines is writing female out of feminism- I'm terrified
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HumberElla · 25/04/2019 13:27

A statement of fact, that transwomen are men, is also not a judgement or a measure of value or a comment on authenticity. It’s just a fact. There is no weighting or hierarchy attached to it.

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2019 13:36

I am constantly amazed at feminists who will argue tirelessly that men cannot be women, yet at the same time refer to those men as 'transwomen/ trans women'. Thereby implying that they are indeed a type of woman.

Me too.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/04/2019 13:37

Yes, I’m done with the term transwoman, it hides the truth

I’ve been experimenting with ‘males who feel compelled to comply with feminine stereotypes’

It doesn’t roll off the tongue, but seems to me to reflect reality more accurately

terryleather · 25/04/2019 14:02

I won't us TW because they are not women.

I still prefer the three letter acronyms that we're no longer allowed to use here.

Maybe we could use braveandstunning as a noun or using ma'ams as the general term..?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/04/2019 14:09

Yes, I do use the forbidden acronym in other places. But I like the inclusion of the word ‘stereotypes’, it makes things very clear

‘Should males who feel compelled to comply with feminine stereotypes use women’s toilets?’

It kind of answers itself doesn’t it?

terryleather · 25/04/2019 14:11

Agreed!

TheGoddessFrigg · 25/04/2019 14:23

I am also very very angry with this implicit racism in that only 'The West' believes in a sex binary and that other societies are more ...what? Flexible? Magical in their thinking. It's all a bit Noble Savage- whereas I cannot think of a single society that did not know that women got pregnant and gave birth. If you study anthropology every society in the world has or has had roles defined by sex.

The misappropriation of Two Spirit is a profound misunderstanding of the culture. It's nit used because the dear old Native Anericans/ First Nation people didn't know the difference between sexes, and had to wait for the white man to come along to tell them.

HorsewithnoPhD · 25/04/2019 14:28

Yes, I do use the forbidden acronym in other places.

Errm...would that be the acronym that I've heard my uncle Tim use?

Just want to make sure I've got this right, and if we do use it we can expect our post to be removed?

DonkeySkin · 25/04/2019 14:31

Bernard, in an effort to be completely accurate I use 'feminine-presenting men', or 'men who adopt feminine appearance norms', because female sex roles encompass so much more than lipstick and dresses.

Men who identify as women usually don't comply with feminine stereotypes, except for the most superficial ones relating to appearance. They remain singularly uninterested in the non-sexy side of femininity, like doing most of the childcare and eldercare, subordinating ones own needs to serve others, etc.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/04/2019 14:32

Yes, your uncle Tim would have a tricky time here

Trousering · 25/04/2019 15:17

It's interesting to put the professorial role in to perspective.

Out of curiosity I went to a public lecture by a professor working on the Future of Legal gender project.

I went with an open mind thinking there may be some future thinking that would benefit human kind and females in particular.

Nope, amongs the repetitive circular sentences about how it's cool to think about changing the law there was only a bit of speculation that it could be wonderful if we did.

I was left baffled. I was expecting thought leadership and to have my understanding stretched.

The only conclusion I reached was that the audience for this work is university age students, so very young adults. This is who professors engage with and are teaching. Beyond that audience it had so little substance and educational content it's useless. We already know those things out here in the world. Unless you are gullible and impressionable it's just fluff. Empty of any actual useful work. It was quite revealing. So they are as said above, quite easy to refute and reject.

FloralBunting · 25/04/2019 15:34

I will jump through every hoop necessary here to not call men any variation of woman.

I call women, women, and lesbians, lesbians, in a very straight forward manner, so basically, if I'm describing an individual using 10 different descriptors, you can be reasonably confident I'm talking about a man.

DodoPatrol · 25/04/2019 15:46

It took me ages to fix in my mind which way round 'transwomen' and 'transmen' were, but now my brain just automatically substitutes 'pretend-' for the prefix. I probably wouldn't come out with this in real life, and it doesn't do justice to the inner turmoil, but it keeps my thoughts straight. Could do with a more polite prefix, like 'inwardly-thinks-they-are-a-', but that's a bit long.

I see similar confusion in most of the below-the line newspaper comments. Only a small proportion of the population know which way a transman is supposed to have transitioned, as far as I can see. It's so much more intuitive to assume a transman is a man who doesn't want to be, and has thus 'transed'. Oh well.

HorsewithnoPhD · 25/04/2019 15:47

bernard I have just looked at the 'Mumsnet statement on moderation in particular with regard to trans rights' and you are right, my uncle is specifically mentioned. So I won't be going there but just in the last few posts suggestions like 'stereotypically presenting feminine men' or some such was used. Will that be deleted? There were a couple of ideas for descriptive terms which seemed quite innocuous..it's a ruddy mine field!

HorsewithnoPhD · 25/04/2019 15:50

I will jump through every hoop necessary here to not call men any variation of woman...

I will follow your lead on this.

DonkeySkin · 25/04/2019 15:54

I cannot think of a single society that did not know that women got pregnant and gave birth. If you study anthropology every society in the world has or has had roles defined by sex.

True. Every human society past and present has understood the sex binary and as far as I'm aware every society has also ascribed specific social roles to the two sexes. Some societies have 'third genders' for gay men, which is a way of tolerating male homosexuality by pushing gay men out of the social category of 'man'. See the Hijira of India and Pakistan, the Muxes of Mexico, Thai Ladyboys, the Fa'afafine of Samoa.

But these 'third gender' males are not understood to be actually women. That's why they have a separate word to define them, and the social rules governing their behaviour are very different (less restrictive) to those that apply to women. The claim that transgender males are literally women is unique to the modern Western trans movement.

One thing trans activists avoid mentioning when they weaponise third genderism is that 'third genders' in past and present non-Western societies are almost exclusively male. The societies in which they arise are invariably patriarchal, with strict adherence to sex roles. Unlike men, women in these societies aren't usually granted the opportunity to opt out of their gender. 'Third genders' for women are very rare and tend to arise only under extreme circumstances, such as the Sworn Virgins of Albania, where blood feuds so reduced the numbers of men that many families found themselves without a patriarch or male heir, and women were obliged to step up, by declaring themselves 'not women'.

This also points to the inherent conservatism of third genderism, in that it preserves sex roles by declaring that anyone who steps out of theirs is not really a man or woman at all. My understanding of the 'Two Spirit' tradition in some Native American societies fits into this broad pattern of third genderism being essentially a way for a male-dominated society to cope with male homosexuality. Most nations that did have Two Spirits recognised them only in men (although a few also recognised sex-role non-conforming women), and according to this piece, Two Spirit people were found in patriarchal tribes like the Lakota, but were unknown among the more egalitarian Iroquois. (I'm happy to be corrected on this by someone who knows more. The piece I link to above is well written but unfortunately not referenced, so it might contain some inaccuracies.)

Fallingirl · 25/04/2019 16:20

On Sally Hines logic the category ‘women’ includes e.g. working class women, black women and non-women. The stupidity is painful.

Theoretically we can certainly play around with changing definitions of categories. I would be happy to go along with post-structuralist perspectives that consider that what ‘woman’ means is open to changes. But,and this is a crucial but, we should never, ever pretend that language and all that language constructs exists independently of power relations.

What we, in myopinion, are seeing very clearly right now, is just how much power men have, and arguably also how much progress women as a class have been making over the past 50 years.

Trans redifinitions of womanhood are simultaneously a backlash against feminism, and a demonstration of just how much power over definining reality men have, as a class.

It is astounding to me how postmodernist academics can overlook power dynamics so completely. It is, ironically, as if they never read Foucault, who was all about considering how those with power get to define what counts as ‘true’. In my view, Sally Hines is talking/tweeting garble even on her own terms.

Trousering · 25/04/2019 20:45

It is astounding to me how postmodernist academics can overlook power dynamics so completely

They aren't overlooking it. They are a product of it and have accepted the cash to espouse their subservience to it.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 25/04/2019 21:01

Heard Sally Hines on the radio. Frankly not the sharpest tool in the box. Kathleen Stock mincemeated her.

terfsandwich · 25/04/2019 21:20

She never says "white middle class women are..."
Why not?

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 25/04/2019 21:21

My strong impression is that she has learnt lots of long words but doesn’t really know what they mean. Hence arguments are a load of meaningless waffle.

Rubidium · 25/04/2019 22:02

Thanks Donkey for your post. Whenever the TRAs and woke blokes bring up Two Spirit people etc. as a justification for transgenderism I always want to ask whether any of these Two Spirit-type people menstruate and if so, do they have to use the menstrual hut. Your post confirms my suspicion that the answer to my (first) question is probably 'No'.

Barracker · 25/04/2019 22:13

Big circles are circles
Red circles are circles
Faint circles are circles
Round circles are circles

Therefore

Square circles are circles

#HinesLogic

AverageAvenger · 25/04/2019 22:21

I’m, if not terrified, then...chilled to the bone.

Leeds. Dark, dark times. Living in this city with Hines, Mermaids, Council Self ID, women barred from public buildings, legal rape zone, Breast Binder Library...is downright sinister.

TheInebriati · 25/04/2019 22:22

When have women ever had this much power? We've had to fight for everything, and the smallest advance has produced a backlash of resentment out of all proportion.

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