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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

682 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 08/12/2018 00:23

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-reasons-for-private-schools-oxbridge-success-sqjb6kkgt

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KayM2 · 09/12/2018 18:02

Calvinsmam; there is not so much a community as a big range of communities; some website based, some local group based ( which tends to be older people), some just a group of TV friends who have dinner together once a month.

Nor is there much fellow feeling on show. But many trans people do not know what is " going on" in terms of WPUK , TRA groups, etc.

EG I have a long term friend, who technically is TV, as she has " taken it no further", and is now quite old and very ill. I stay friends with her because she is ill, but also because she is a person who I have never heard say a bad word about anyone. We talk on the phone often; she has NO knowledge of the TRAs, or of self ID as an issue. She just has some TV friends who she has meals with. She is on one of the Trans websites, and it is one that never mentions all the stuff we are talking about on MN.

As it happens, the word " trans" winds us transsexual people up, because we know what TS means ( we think!) and we have changed our lives accordingly. And we have convinced two senior psychiatrists and a panel that we are serious. Most of us have; some , such as Debbie, and I believe Miranda ( though I may be wrong as I don't know her) choose not to apply for the GRC and birth certificate that presumably they would qualify for. It's all very confusing.

No-one knows anything, really. But
( insert god of choice) knows what page the TRAs are on.They can't all be as bad as some we have seen. Can they? They seem very keen on self ID. I suppose they would be.

ChewyLouie · 09/12/2018 18:10

Would transsexuals accept a third unisex space for toilets that is a closed cubicle and campaign for them on this basis? Businesses that value their custom will find the space to make this a reality, they can vote with their feet.
I think women’s facilities need to be biologically sex based, the current trans movement is too dangerous to risk otherwise.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 09/12/2018 18:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 18:40

They can't all be as bad as some we have seen. Can they? They seem very keen on self ID. I suppose they would be.

I know a few tras in real life and they are a mixed bag.

One is a ftm who’s very recently transitioned, (he/him they/them pronouns) they in are in their late thirties and is in the creative arts. They are (were?) a lesbian and works in a very pc university, they LOVE Judith Butler and I remember ages ago watching them do a talk about sex being a social construct and thought I must just be misunderstanding what they were saying because it was so bonkers.
They are really really lovely, and I know that I could have a really good conversation with them about it all, but they are also in a position of power as a lecturer and I am so so glad that I’m not a student of theirs now.

Another is a very vocal Mtf who again transitioned later in life, she is the only trans person I genuinely struggle with pronouns with as it’s just so hard to think of them as a she. They were big on the fetish scene for years and really openly into humiliation and cissy stuff, then they transitioned full time, they have bought hormones on the internet and dress in a very stereotypically ‘sexy way’ (think corsets and fishnet tights) or they wear jeans and flats.
She’s obviously on the spectrum and was a difficult man before she transitioned. I cannot talk to her about any of this, I think she’d genuinely never speak to me again and very aggressive with me if she found out my views.
I have to interact with her because she is very good friends with my mother and is great with her. My mother is single and she does all the repair work and jobs that my mother can’t physically do. I get on with her, but I don’t feel I could ever have a conservation with her about any of this.

The other two are a really sweet young mtf couple who are the nicest, politest young people. I adore them as people but their twitter feeds make me want to run to the hills. It’s awful because they genuinely believe that terfs want to kill them and that they are hated.
I think it’s evil that these vulnerable young people are being taught that there are people out there that want them dead just for being who they are.
I want to explain to them the truth but I just don’t think they are ready to hear it. It’s sad.

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 18:42

I can't say what transsexual people would accept.

I would have thought that third spaces would be a very big thing to provide in new and existing buildings, but also it would be a huge commitment by central government, as ( a) it goes against international trends, (b) it would cost millions, (c) it would have to be policed, as those who feel they could do so would ignore it, (d) currently a trans person is committing no legal offence by entering and using " the other" spaces, (e) many TS people who are currently allowed to use the ladies as of legal right would cut up rough, and (f) some of us would not feel, or be, safe.

The issue of prisons, and refuges, is different. That , it seems to me, is fertile ground for action.

SarahCarer · 09/12/2018 18:50

I know this is a digression but we simply need to double the disabled toilets and remove the disabled badge from one of them (while keeping both fully accessible) This is not too big an ask on building regs. There are loads of reasons why all sorts of people would prefer a private washroom to a shared one.

SarahCarer · 09/12/2018 18:51

In addition to shared but single sex spaces that is.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 19:01

Shy bairns get nowt. Trans activists have the ears all political parties and policy makers,it wouldn't harm to ask.

If male people can enter female toilets and changing rooms legally, why do we pretend to have single sex facilities? Who benefits from the lie that they are segregated by sex?

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 19:16

calvinsman; brilliant post about the people you mention. All the issues were there.

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 19:21

re pressure; David Davis ( Davies? the Monmouth MP ) was the only one who spoke words that give us hope, in the recent committee. I ( and I am sure many others) had sent him emails... the first contact I ever had with an Tory MP....

We just have to keep banging on. I hope that though we are few, the TS people can add just a little weight to the cause. People can't argue convincingly that we are transphobic. Though they try!

Racecardriver · 09/12/2018 19:24

That is very brave. I hope that they don’t find themselves under attack as a result. Well done to them.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 19:34

Thank you to all who have signed this letter, It's great Flowers I hope the trans lobby take note and I hope you don't get too much abuse.

For the life of me I cannot imagine why old stalwarts like Christine Burns and Stephen Whittle haven't already written a letter like this and sent a strong message to the TRAs who look up to them. Their continued silence is deafening.

GoblinsAndGhouls · 09/12/2018 19:43

Your point about makeup adjustment made me smile. It would be a dodgy thing to do if one was worried about being spotted. I never wear any, ever.

Grin I was about 19 and it was the first time I'd ever encountered a transsexual in real life. I went to wash my hands a the sink and caught the eye of the person next to me in the mirror reapplying their lipstick.

I can remember it well; my thought process went something like, "eh? That looks like a... ohhh..." we smiled at each other and that was it! All very uneventful.

Which is why this current situation is so ridiculous!

I'm sorry about my "geezer" comment

Don't apologise. I do get it. But, at the same time, it's an argument that is used a lot to justify allowing males into women only spaces - that no women have ever objected. The reality is that some women won't mind; some won't notice; and some will feel very uncomfortable and scared.

The whole point of women only spaces is that women have a place they can go to to be free from males and, for a lot of women, that is very important. No one has any way of knowing whether women are saying nothing because they don't mind; haven't noticed; or are quietly terrified. And it's not fair that any woman should be made to feel like that in a single sex space that is specifically designed to separate males out.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 19:50

No one has any way of knowing whether women are saying nothing because they don't mind; haven't noticed; or are quietly terrified. And it's not fair that any woman should be made to feel like that in a single sex space that is specifically designed to separate males out.

And it's definitely not fair to make girls feel unsafe.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 20:00

If I’m being honest it’s not just about safety with me.
I also like female only spaces. I am sure there are some trans women who read completely as female but they are in the minority and I can’t say all but I know lots of women act differently around males.
I like my trans friends, most of the time they are very very welcome, but there is something so liberating about being in a female only space, it’s incredibly healing.
These changes effectively make it illegal for women to organise without males being allowed to be present. I find that really upsetting.

I can also see how that might offend my trans friends and it’s really sad.
I wish I could wage a magic want and make them the sex they want to be, I really do.

I think it’s a bit like my gay friends, I know that they love me and welcome me into their spaces but I am invited in I don’t force my way in and if they ever said ‘actually we would like some time just for gay people’ I would get that entirely, sometimes it’s just nice to be around people who just ‘get it’.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 09/12/2018 20:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChewyLouie · 09/12/2018 20:38

Kay2m,thanks for your comments. I struggle to see how third unisex spaces rather like disabled loos can threaten the safety of anyone or need to be policed. I feel the current government isn’t committed to the safety of women, but it shouldn’t be an either/or situation, it needs to be safe for all. A third space is safe for all.
It would be great if the trans community could divert the funds currently being used to threaten women’s spaces and use it to help fund a safe option.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 20:51

It's great that this letter is signed by 'transsexual people' and not 'transsexual women' even though all the signatories' names are more traditionally associated with the female sex. It's great that the letter refers to us simply and unequivocally as women and states that we are oppressed because of our sex, and not some metaphysical gender identity.

While I wholeheartedly support this letter and am grateful to all who signed, I am wary that it may be used by some in an attempt to leverage female socialisation. Some may have misinterpreted 'We seek to find common cause with women against male violence' as 'let us in your lavs,' when that was clearly not the intention.

We had an 'honour system' (except it never was because women were never asked, it was a 'put up with it and don't make a fuss, it doesn't happen often' system). Lots of women have never been comfortable with it. Of course nobody shouted 'ooh look it's a geezer' because of female socialisation, which includes both the polite centring of male needs and the constant risk assessment we all perform in the interests of self-preservation. You won't have noticed the women who just quietly left. You won't have noticed those that stayed standing, fully dressed, in their cubicles until they were sure you had left. You have no concept of women only space because as soon as you enter, it's a mixed sex space.

Women don't need an excuse in order to object to sharing toilets with males. Whether we have a history of sexual assault, religious or cultural rules we have to follow, or neither, we are all entitled to not only safety but also privacy and dignity. Thinking that as long as we keep out the males who might hit or rape us then everything's fine shows a very low regard for women, what we are worth, what rights we deserve.

It's not women's job to sort out where everybody goes for a piss. Lots of us here are mums, but we're not your mum. You do the work to come up with solutions that meet your needs and don't crap on women and I will support your efforts, although I'm with Spartacus here, I will spend more energy on campaigning for more Changing Places because there are people who cannot physically use any toilet.

Third spaces are the obvious solution but not good enough for some apparently. If the trans lobby got behind this idea you'd have a commitment to providing third spaces tomorrow. Until a year or so ago, the trans lobby could ask for the moon on a stick and get it in short order. The political landscape has changed somewhat since then, thanks to the huge uprising in women's resistance. Right now, a suggestion for something that made life easier for trans people and didn't piss off women should be hugely popular. Everyone (aside from the 'aggy kids') is sick of this impasse. Yes it's expensive but there appears to be plenty of money sloshing about for the likes of Stonewall, Gires etc. See if you can divert it.

If there are genuine problems with the third space solution then really it's up to trans people to come up with other suggestions (cf. 'we're not your mum') I have no interest in being nagged and cajoled into giving up my boundaries in an elaborate game of 'yes, but where do I pee??'

Toilets are the least of these issues, obviously. Maybe we should be starting with the most important and urgent contexts. I seem to remember Women In Prison have tentatively suggested third spaces as a solution to dire situation in prisons.

welshgendercrit · 09/12/2018 20:54

there is something so liberating about being in a female only space, it’s incredibly healing. These changes effectively make it illegal for women to organise without males being allowed to be present. I find that really upsetting.

This. I too find women-only groups and spaces deeply satisfying and helpful. The atmosphere and interaction is quite different from mixed-sex situations.

BirdseyeFrozen · 09/12/2018 20:57

Christine Burns mentors "young activists".
Stephen Whittle educates them.
They both derive income and substantial status from " The Trans Movement" these days.

They are very different people in much of their present thinking to the signatories of the Times letter, and the very articulate TS women posting here about their own views and experiences, in my view.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 21:11

Has everybody seen ? It's very good.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 21:30

Yeah I know, Birdseye. PFC always used to make such a big deal out of effecting change through making friends though. That's a big part of the reason why we're in this mess - because they campaigned for things quietly, under the radar, through having chats with the friends they made in politics and the media.

Is this the payoff? Must we now be subject to violence, threats and intimidation because their backroom dealings no longer work (because we're watching now and women can see)?

Surely it's incumbent on anybody involved in this debate to say violence, threats and intimidation towards women are wrong, no matter what your views. It's not OK to piss up professors' doors or cause them to hide behind trees to avoid the TRAs who are stalking them. It's not OK to no platform women or come up with disgusting definitions of their names. It's not OK to physically attack women in broad daylight just because they are attempting to attend a meeting to discuss their own rights.

This is being a decent human being 101.

BirdseyeFrozen · 09/12/2018 21:33

Pencils I never thought that I would find a talk on toilets so informative and also entertaining. Clare Greed knows her stuff!

Neurotrash · 09/12/2018 21:34

This. I too find women-only groups and spaces deeply satisfying and helpful. The atmosphere and interaction is quite different from mixed-sex situations.

Yes. Until recently this was a thought I felt compelled to suppress but it's true, it's deeply meaningful to know that I can access a female only space if needed, physically or emotionally.

I'm lucky I can at my local pool; a colleague now rarely swims following a voyerism incident (that resulted in prosecution) at her local pool with mixed changing facilities.

BirdseyeFrozen · 09/12/2018 22:13

Sorry, cross posted missed yours!
Yes to all that you say Pencils

What we are seeing then, is the hijacking of Transsexual people and their individual struggles, by the so called TRA.

TS people, are some few thousands in number, who have been to hell and back. They just want to get on with their lives, like most of us. We see here, that most don't really have huge support networks. There is no huge Transsexual collective voice just as there is no huge Intersex collective voice, as we are talking minority groups, with little influence socially, politically and economically.

I am so angry about what is happening to this small part of our society in addition to what is happening to women and children.
The "Woke" are either sleeping fools or those who look the other way for their own purposes.
Call it out, and it is "transphobic". The word has no genuine meaning these days, except as a tool to close down debate.

And yes, violence, hate and spite should always be called out by everyone.

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