Page 9 | Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

Mamaryllis · 09/12/2018 22:35

Pencils, were you on SW’s thread on here? SW has literally no intention to do anything other than quietly and determinedly push through self-ID using political and back door connections.
SW’s aim is to completely destroy women’s rights and any safeguards based on sex.

Mamaryllis · 09/12/2018 22:37

It was a masterpiece of performing gender though.
Oh I can’t be relied upon to remember birthdays! That’s what I have a wife for!

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 22:51

re the "aggro" that people who signed the Guardian or Times letters or support WPUK get;

Actually, for most , there isn't any. Yet, anyway . :-)

We know that some of the more visible people DO get real trouble, but most TS people are not really in contact with the idiotic / trans/ activist clan at all. Many of us are a bit older, or a lot older. We just don't meet these people, or them us. For me, and some others , it is not a thing that needs courage.

Those people who are living their lives " in stealth" ( ie with no-one around them knowing their past) ARE taking a real risk. And a risk that is hard to assess, which makes it a bit of a worry.

Those who are "out" have very little to lose. In fact, members of my family are rather pleased that I try to get involved with these things, insofar as I do.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 23:06

In fact, members of my family are rather pleased that I try to get involved with these things, insofar as I do.

That’s made me smile. I can’t help but imagine it in a ‘everybody needs a hobby way’ though I’m sure it’s not.

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 23:13

Not quite a hobby perhaps. :-)

Being on the internet is a well known form of procrastination, though. I have plenty I should be doing, inc about 2 dozen cards, but the laptop is a draw.....

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 23:58

Mamaryllis - Pencils, were you on SW’s thread on here? SW has literally no intention to do anything other than quietly and determinedly push through self-ID using political and back door connections. SW’s aim is to completely destroy women’s rights and any safeguards based on sex.

Yes I was and yes I know. What their intention is vs. what they tell the media, vs. what they tell their friends in high places, vs what they try to fob us off with, are all very different things.

I don't expect them to agree with me on anything, I just expect them to not quietly condone violence against women. These are the basic rules of civilised debate.

A few weeks ago a 'male feminist' kicked a pro-life campaigning woman in the face, in the street, in broad daylight. Nobody I know had a problem speaking out against that violence, no matter what we thought of that woman's politics.

Calvinsmam · 10/12/2018 00:05

Being on the internet is a well known form of procrastination, though. I have plenty I should be doing, inc about 2 dozen cards, but the laptop is a draw.....

Story....of....my....life.

I’m my own boss too. I think I’d probably be a millionaire by now if I didn’t keep getting sucked into Mumsnet.

PencilsInSpace · 10/12/2018 00:23

KayM2 - We just don't meet these people, or them us. For me, and some others , it is not a thing that needs courage.

Well aren't you lucky?

You must have noticed by now that women do inevitably come up against these people, whenever we try to prevent the erosion of our rights. Look at the footage of Speakers' Corner and of JamJar Bristol, Read the many accounts on FWR of women who have very bravely stood up at work or in other contexts.

Women do need courage to resist this bullshit and thankfully there are loads of very courageous women in this newly burgeoning feminist resistance movement

If it's all so easy for people like you, maybe you could expend a bit of spare energy on coming up with some solutions and raising support for them within your own community.

ShotsFired · 10/12/2018 06:43

Everything Pencils said. I am sick of having to have A Good Reason why I want hard-won sex segregated spaces to remain that way. I just do. That should be reason enough.

I am equally sick of having to perform utterly laughable, apparently mandatory, ritual genuflections to the entire trans world before I make any comment on female only issues, spaces and causes.

LangCleg · 10/12/2018 09:18

What Pencils said. I fail to see the point in signing a letter condemning male violence if you're just going to fan yourself and accept the accolades for signing, then turn around and pretend it's not really of much consequence. Charming.

KayM2 · 10/12/2018 09:50

Langcleg and shotsfired;
Once again I have managed to give the wrong impression; when I said that people like me did not often have contact with the TRA lobby, I wrote it in answer to those who have said that we " were brave" to sign the recent letter. And that for some of "us" it was, but for many it wasn't. This was intended to be the opposite of " accepting accolades"

We signed it because we thought it was right to do so.

And as for creating solutions, the very small group of transsexual women I am in discuss possible solutions all the time, and currently have none beyond agitating to get the Self ID thing kicked into the very long grass.

And as for raising support in " our own community", as I and others have said there is no one " trans/ transgender/ transsexual community.

nellieellie · 10/12/2018 10:37

I think this letter is an extremely good thing. I reckon that for most people out there, who are neither on mumsnet, nor friends with Stonewall, the idea they have of a “trans person” IS a transsexual. Somebody who hates their body, has dysphoria and in the main seeks surgery and hormone treatment.

I think that idea of TWAW, and “some women have penises”, as well as the concept of self ID is probably just not appreciated by the general public.

What letters like this will do is show firstly that opposition to the TRA agenda is not exclusively rabid feminists (ie women), and also that there is dispute actually amongst trans people concerning the proposed changes. THAT makes it clearer that it cannot be “transphobic” to object to those changes.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 10/12/2018 10:38

I think kicking self id into the long grass will only benefit transpeople, it will be a disaster for women and girls.

By ignoring the problems, we will be unable to stop the gradual erosion of sex segregation and the growing influence of trans rights organisations.

If we discuss self id, we can also discuss our rights under the EA to sex segregation and let women and organisations know that excluding male transpeople, whether self id or not, is allowed and very important in many cases.

To women and girls, it doesn't matter if a person is self id or not,what matters is sex segregation.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/12/2018 10:50

Zutt is right.

The concept of self-ID needs debating (and, obviously IMO) rejecting. At the moment, we already have people behaving as if self-ID is the law. And swallowing the TWAW dogma, with no apparent consideration of the implications for women. And accepting the ludicrously large 'stonewall umbrella' definition of 'trans'.

And that's before we get to all the issues surrounding gender nonconforming children...children 'self id'ing' as trans (or in some cases a parent ID'ing them) and expecting 'affirmation' etc

LangCleg · 10/12/2018 10:58

What ZuttZeVootEeeVro said. If government kicks GRA reform into the long grass, we will still be faced with the gradual erosion of our sex-based rights. Better we get it all out in the open.

We're getting off topic from the letter itself, which I still commend as a condemnation of male violence.

OlennasWimple · 10/12/2018 12:33

We've moved past the point where the long grass option is the best one - two years ago, I would have agreed with you. But not now - there is too much already happening where organisations and individuals are acting as if self-ID was already enshrined in legislation (prisons, politics, refuge funding, toilets etc etc etc)

Vixxxy · 10/12/2018 15:59

Debbie H's Twitter thread about the letter is interesting both for the additional links and some of the side conversations:

Ahh, that link..Robin Green..of 'I see them as real women, except for relationship purposes' has reared his head again

DebbieInBirmingham · 10/12/2018 18:49

Robin Green has stated that he wouldn't be keen to have sex with transwomen (or words to that effect).

Thank heavens for that, that's what I say. Ladies, you are welcome to him.

OlennasWimple · 10/12/2018 19:49

Calvinsmam · 10/12/2018 20:04

Wow thanks debbie we shal truly feast tonight!

AngryAttackKittens · 10/12/2018 20:07

If we're going to play pass the parcel with Robin can we at least wear gloves?

LangCleg · 10/12/2018 20:45

If it means Robin will take his sex equipment elsewhere, I hereby claim my special status of (saggy titted) AFAB trans woman.

BirdseyeFrozen · 10/12/2018 21:34

Never heard of him, nor his penis beaker.

Ereshkigal · 10/12/2018 21:45

Robin Green has stated that he wouldn't be keen to have sex with transwomen (or words to that effect).

Yes, Robin: Mr "women, except for relationship purposes".

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 13:33

Yeah I know, Birdseye. PFC always used to make such a big deal out of effecting change through making friends though. That's a big part of the reason why we're in this mess - because they campaigned for things quietly, under the radar, through having chats with the friends they made in politics and the media.

Is this the payoff? Must we now be subject to violence, threats and intimidation because their backroom dealings no longer work (because we're watching now and women can see)?

Important Guardian article with background 2013:
Christine Burns on how Press For Changed successfully lobbied for the Gender Recognition Act:

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press"

in same article, James Barrett (lead clinician at the Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic, the largest and oldest in the world):

In 25 years, Barrett has seen trans people become "a networked bunch" – more so than other people, he thinks – thanks to the internet. Lees, who also works for Trans Media Action, says social media is the "essential catalyst" for the transformation of trans people in society. "Society is in transition and we've woken up from the operation and there's no going back. We can't pretend that trans people don't exist any more," she says. "People have been taking the piss out of trans people for 60 years. The narrative on trans issues has been controlled by people who have no understanding of them. Social media is about us grabbing the narrative back and telling our own stories – this is our reality, this is what we go through and this is what matters to us. We're here, we're in your face, we definitely exist. That's the most important thing – realising we exist." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

"And I can honestly say that the work that trans people do for each other means that, for me at least, the trans community is a beautiful place to be. Despite our differences, we have each others' backs"

Jess Bradley 'To My Trans Sisters' edited by Charlie Craggs (publ Oct 2017)