Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

[PimmsnLemonade]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-reasons-for-private-schools-oxbridge-success-sqjb6kkgt

Thanks Miranda. I missed that particular important thread and blog post (due to baby birthing and sustaining)

Anyone got a clue what all the deletions are for? (Mine included)

I thought this thread was going well by the robust standards of this debate.

Please lets remember that since there have been public loos, changing rooms, loos in dept stores, some people have used the ones that do not correspond with their birth sex. Often for most of their lives.

Although we often read that" we can always spot them", it ain't so. Usually, but not always. Males ( and we are talking about males, really) vary hugely in build., and in natural levels of testosterone. Some have little or none of the strong jawbone and prominent ridges above the eyes, and so on, and some are if slight height and build.

When someone who is not of strongly male build has been living " as a woman" for 30 years, and has worked at it , they may well pass under the radar.

So the situation at the moment is as it is. Transsexual women, and indeed trans people, are " in the spaces. " Not often, and very rarely with bad outcomes. The problem remains; what the hell happens if thousands of trans women suddenly invade?

I don't know.But just saying " we are not having it" may not solve the problem. The least worst solution might be to stick with the current system.

According to my mother my daughter, and my sisters, I do not get glanced at in the mirrors in the loos. I've never had " ere' there's a geezer in here" comment when I have been in a cubicle. But tbh I don't pass wonderfully well, if people have a hard look at me. I think people are just getting on with life, and as long as there is no evil intention, tend not to take much notice.

Though when I transitioned, at UCA, I did not use the ladies loos for the first year, because I can't tell who has good reason to be alarmed at males in the ladies. Would I go back to using the gents, after two decades? Sorry, but no.

Please lets remember that since there have been public loos, changing rooms, loos in dept stores, some people have used the ones that do not correspond with their birth sex. Often for most of their lives.

But it’s not just about toilets and changing rooms, it’s about sport and prisons, refuges and hospitals.

We know we’ve shared our toilets with transsexuals, we’ve seen them.

Would you be against a third space kay?

You signed the letter, right, Kay? What was your motivation? To unequivocally condemn male violence or to use a (hopefully) positive reaction to it as a wedge to persuade women to concede that some male born people (ie, you) should continue to use their spaces whether they like it or not? And appropriate their language, whether they like it or not?

(And yes, we do know.)

Because I'm sitting here very much noticing that a tiny little pushback doesn't result in any self reflection (honourable exception Miranda, as always) - only an immediate kneejerk assertion that some males are coming in, whether we consent or not.

I think a lot of people are surprised that some trans people are not happy with the option as a third as a compromise. If you read the ‘mumsnet a hotbed of transphobia’ thread you’ll see that some of the posters who join to tell us how transphobic we are actually bring this up as the obvious solution.

On the face of it it’s perfect. Trans women say they can’t use the male toilets because of fear of being beaten up or harassed, women don’t want males in their space for the same reasons so we provide a third space.
Unfortunately the crux of the matter is it’s not just about safety, it’s about validation.

And I get that! Gender dysphoria must be awful, I have the deepest sympathy for people who suffer with it. But for too long have females comfort, safety, dignity and body autonomy been placed second to the whims of males bodied people. You don’t get to use us.

Would I go back to using the gents, after two decades? Sorry, but no.

So what makes you different from the common or garden TRA, KayM2?

Langcleg, does it really matter what I say about my motivation, or will you make up your own mind?. When the draft of the letter was presented, I read it and thought it was excellent. Focussed. And right. And as my name is on it, you have sussed that I signed it. So did 15 others, some of whom I have not heard of and know nothing about.

My motivation? Trying to do the right thing.

And, ( one or two on MN know this already,) conscience. As a youngster I was too young, but too blind to see,what should have been obvious, which was that there was something going on in my large wider family. Some members of my wider family were routine sexual abusers, and thought there was nothing wrong with it. I found out later that the abused told teachers, their mothers, some friends. They were told they were evil little girls to make up such terrible stories about relatives who were such fine upstanding men, etc etc. Lives were ruined, and were still affected to the end. I will never forgive myself for not asking more questions. If I, and my male cousins, had talked about things more...

That, and my work in special boarding schools, made me aware of how common this stuff is. Working in such close proximity to ( almost) all female staff groups, any residual idea I had about the superiority of males I was brought thinking was squashed out of existence long ago.

You asked the question, Langcleg, and I have written the bald truth. You may assume that I am lying for advantage, or assume I have other motivations. Who knows? It is hard to fully know oneself, in the final analysis. I am in my 70s, and at my age, I have little to lose from any changes towards self ID. I just think it is utterly wrong, on principle.

So what makes you different from the common or garden TRA, KayM2?

• Doesn't deny biology.
• Doesn't want to silence those who think she shouldn't be using the female loos or otherwise want to discuss women's rights and protections.

We don't all agree about everything, but we all want self ID buried and we all want the reality denial and shutdown of debate to stop.

I think robust debate and disagreement about what comes next is healthy, and should be had; but kay is no TRA.

P.S. If anyone wants a laugh, or just proof that some lurkers report every post they can, take a look at my now reinstated 'transphobic' post upthread at 19.25 yesterday.

don

With respect, donquixotedelamancha please understand I was not soliciting your opinion. Thank you.

P.S. If anyone wants a laugh, or just proof that some lurkers report every post they can, take a look at my now reinstated 'transphobic' post upthread at 19.25 yesterday.

You did better than I've ever managed with a couple of my 'reported' posts - one of which simply referred to a comment made by a very prominent transman (no further clue necessary) in a previous thread. That was all it did, someone complained and no matter of argument got the mods to see it was a vexatious report.

I posted on the AIBU thread (as a transsexual) about third spaces, but the thread ended as it reached 1000 posts.

I am not opposed to the idea just see possible consequences.

I am very much in support of the exemptions that rightly at present operate in spaces such as refuges, sports, open plan changing rooms and short lists - all of which I do not think most transsexuals would wish to usurp. They need properly establishing in law and may need tightening in terms of fairness and safety.

There is huge scope for agreement here I suspect.

But with the one most likely to impact on everyone - toilets - this is where we might find some because these have not been specifically exempted up to now.

So how long before say every Sainsbury's prioritises building third spaces in what are often cramped spaces. Taking over disabled facilities would be wrong as these are needed. What do the trans parents with young kids do on the weekly shop if the rules change after many years. They do exist and it is people like that who will face the biggest challenges.

So what happens in the meantime?

It is also transferring the problem of pervert men who might self ID - and not really solving it. Absolutely we have to stop that happening in the ladies. The concerns here are legitimate.

But would third spaces stop it? Or would they just be used by the people who are most respectful (likely most transsexuals would comply I would say) whereas the ones actually seeking validation will be the most likely to challenge the 'no men in here' policy and relish doing so. It could even make the risk of confrontation even worse.

Third spaces mean transsexuals of both biological sexes will be in the space where the risky ones all go instead. So that puts some women at risk too if these toilets are created to relocate all trans people regardless of physiology or any evaluation.

As I say I am not arguing against the concept. Just pondering how the solution might (or might not) work. Yes, it might in an exclusionary sense for women. So I totally understand why it is favoured. But I am not sure how it works in practice even here given the initial problem largely remains. Just emboldemed by being excluded or at best sent somewhere else.

It also does not resolve the fundamental issue that we should not be allowing legal change of sex without solid medical reasons and proper assessment. That has long term consequences far beyond toilets.

We should be joining forces because it does not help any of us. Not for women. Not for transsexuals. Not even for the disturbed people who will do this unwisely and later regret it if they have had no proper evaluation. And not for the future of society if sex becomes optional and self determined. Which I suspect most of us agree is dangerous nonsense.

They are all good points lass
Maybe the toilet issue is to have single cubicles with sinks, I’ve noticed a lot of new places building these now.

Being honest now because I think it’s important to be, but the thought of getting rid of the female toilets actually makes me a bit sad because I like them, but it does seem like the most logical option.

I personally don’t have an issue with transsexuals using the female toilets BUT I also know it’s not my personal choice to make and actually I don’t get to consent on behalf of other women.

Keeping and even strengthening the exemptions in the equality act is a must. I think what’s pushing some of this fear is the unwillingness for places to uphold the existing law. It means that women feel like they can’t feel like the protections already in place will work for them.

I've never had " ere' there's a geezer in here" comment when I have been in a cubicle

I am genuinely appreciative of the letter - male violence is most definitely the issue here! But when I read statements like the above I am reminded very much of the uncomfortable truths of the situation and the reality of transsexuals using women's spaces.

I know I have shared women's spaces with transsexuals. I've seen them - queuing for the toilet; washing their hands; reapplying their lipstick. Sometimes we've made fleeting eye contact and I've smiled as I would do at any other person in any situation. I can't say that, until this recent situation came to my attention, that I've ever felt uncomfortable or intimidated - it's never occured to me to do so.

However, the notion that no woman has ever commented because they haven't minded or noticed is naive. And does show exactly what males/men/transsexuals generally don't understand - what is missed about women.

Women generally don't make comments such as this. Women generally wouldn't confront a male person or draw attention to themselves in the presence of a male person because we have learnt from being very little girls that to do so is putting ourselves at risk.

We have learnt that it is our responsibility to keep ourselves safe around men/males - however they present; however calm, polite, reasonable they appear to be because many of us have seen just how often that calmness, politeness and reasonableness is dependent on us keeping quiet and behaving as men/males expect.

It's a brave/foolhardy woman who would draw negative attention to herself from a nearby male.

Precisely because it is male violence that is the issue.

lassupthebrew

I agree with that and I don't know what the solution is either.

I have nothing to add but I'd like to add how please I am at this thread, how brilliant and respectful it is.

Thank you ❤️

I think that when people can openly express their fears and not dismiss the fears of other people then we can have an proper conversations.

I can completely understand why it would be difficult for a trans person to do that but I am so glad some are.

Please know that my boundaries are not there because I dislike trans people. I have many trans people in my life who I love.
When I call trans women Male it’s not done out of spite or to invalidate you or belittle you. I do it because we need to deal in material reality when it comes to protecting women and children and it needs to be done.

I look forward to the day when we get this mess sorted and we can go back to fighting side by side against Male violence and homophobia.

I am also so grateful for all the amazing women on this forum who do rationally and tirelessly keep plugging away at it even when faced with some horrendous abuse or even just the relentless trolling.

Goblins and ghouls; I'm sorry about my "geezer" comment; it was intended to be a quip, and one containing a truth as well as an attempt at humour. In fact, " ere' there's a geezer in here" is actually a comment I heard a teenager call out, in a loo that I was not in but was close to, with my son, at the former Wimbledon FC ground in Milton Keynes.

Your point about makeup adjustment made me smile. It would be a dodgy thing to do if one was worried about being spotted. I never wear any, ever.

Can I ask a question to the trans women in the thread?

I’m just wondering if you feel you have a community or support of other trans women? Is there a ‘transsexual community’ does that exist?

My mother used to run social groups for trans people but that was was mostly for young people who were at the start of their transition.

I’m just wondering if feeling part of community makes it more likely to be part of self id. I don’t know how to word it exactly without sounding clunky, but if being trans IS your identity rather than part of it makes you less likely to be able to see the other side of the coin.

I don’t know if that made sense.

Calvinsmam, transwomen ARE biologically male. No need to say sorry for stating facts.

If all those trans activists out there had a few months of psychotherapy that they are so keen to eradicate then 'miracles' might happen.

They would be aware of the superficiality of living your life around constant validation. Normal people do not go day to day having to be accepted as a man or woman, or they suffer 'literal violence'. They live their life as the person they prove themselves to be.

Fighting for rights dissolves into irrelevance compared with that. If you choose to just live rather than live to be correctly pronouned.

This seems a big difference between transgender and transsexual that I notice. One transitions to escape from a trauma and live as normally as possible afterwards. The other transitions to be socially different, even special, and change other people's perceptions of the way the world works.

It seems one reason why there is such a gulf of understanding between the two. And why transsexuals by and large do not form our join societies or action groups (plus there being very small numbers involved too, of course). But why transgender people do.