Page 6 | Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 13:12

A women is an adult human female. Not an adult human male. A women isn't a male person who has had surgery or hormones or who wears a certain types of clothes.

Any male person who seeks to change the definition away from female, and expects women to give up their spaces, is part of the problem.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:13

"not my problem"

If both sides are to engage in meaningful debate then that doesn't work as a response from either side. every time someone makes a valid point it always gets shut down with "not my problem".

it really isn't as black and white as you put it. Granted the "transgender" umbrella is a joke but we come back to the fact that there is a small number of transitioning transsexual people with GD who deserve some understanding.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 13:21

By debate, you are asking me to negotiate my daughter and my rights away.

Women and girls need and want sex segregated spaces.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 13:24

Just out of interest why wouldn’t you want to share a space with transmen cant ? Is it purely a validation thing?

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 13:24

I find it instructive that you are happy to take the accolades for signing the letter and use language that you must be aware will be offensive to a good number of women here, then bridle at the slightest challenge.

Like I say, thank you for signing the letter. Any condemnation of male violence and abuse is to be welcomed. It does not manipulate me into changing my opinion on the need for single sex spaces nor the appropriation of language women use to describe themselves.

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 13:27

it really isn't as black and white as you put it. Granted the "transgender" umbrella is a joke but we come back to the fact that there is a small number of transitioning transsexual people with GD who deserve some understanding

Yes it is.

Human beings can't change sex.

Women (adult human females) need protections from men (adult human males).

Understanding ≠ surrender of language, rights and spaces. This is an appeal to female socialisation and entirely unwelcome in a feminist space.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:29

What has started as a thread that looked at how transsexual people were not represented by the modern transgender has
once again merged into the "women v trans" argument which benefits no one.

the original message stands.... transsexual women stand against the violence and abuse that are carried on in the name of "transgender rights" and distance themselves from that.

reiterating the same argument only ends in anger.

society as a whole needs to address these issues openly and honestly without fear of repercussion.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:31

Women (adult human females) need protections from men

This is such a sweeping generalisation. You cannot label all male born people in that way.

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 13:32

once again merged into the "women v trans" argument which benefits no one

You mean it doesn't benefit you. Which is rather the point. Thanks for letting us know.

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 13:34

This is such a sweeping generalisation. You cannot label all male born people in that way.

You have no idea whatsoever what you're demonstrating here, have you?

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:35

I am not going to be goaded into an argument so I can be a target for everything wrong with the transgender agenda.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 13:37

‘society as a whole needs to address these issues openly and honestly without fear of repercussion.’

We are trying.

Unfortunately The transgender ideology isn’t going away, the cat is out of the bag now. It is impossible for us to tell who is transgender and who is a ‘genuine transsexual’. There is no way to allow transsexuals in but transgenders out.
A third space is the only workable option.

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 13:42

This is such a sweeping generalisation. You cannot label all male born people in that way.

That letter was not written so that signatories could take it upon themselves to come on here and use it to argue NAMALT. This fundamentally undermines what common cause we have.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:43

Unfortunately The transgender ideology isn’t going away, the cat is out of the bag now. It is impossible for us to tell who is transgender and who is a ‘genuine transsexual’. There is no way to allow transsexuals in but transgenders out.

I am 100% in agreement. Transsexual people have been thrown under the bus by the transgender brigade and there is no easy way to untangle it.

what I'm sure we can agree on though to ensure things don't get worse....
reject self ID
reject demedicalisation
have support in place for gender counselling to ensure transition is only ever a last resort

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:47

that letter was not written so that signatories could take it upon themselves to come on here and use it to argue NAMALT.

Exceot I'm not a signatory! I have never even said I was transsexual !

I haven't argued anything in this thread because I agree with the vast majority of it. All I have said is I think both sides need to be open to debate.

Neurotrash · 09/12/2018 13:48

Thank you to the authors, polishers and signatories of this letter.

Thank you Lang, Thank you Can't and Thank you Miranda.

I appreciate discussion and debate around this so very much.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 13:49

A trans woman on another thread made the point that some trans women don’t speak out because they get loads of shit from their community and their ‘prize’ is to be told there’s no space for them in women’s spaces.

This show that non of the trans community are listening to women and understanding our needs. Calling out threats and violence is great, and using their own names is brave.

But showing bravery doesn't mean they have the right to take away sex segregated spaces. Women and girls still need these spaces.

Neurotrash · 09/12/2018 13:50

I am a member of the group responsible for this letter. (This post is not a group post but a personal one)

Ah, this read that you are a signatory of the letter.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 13:51

*I am a member of the group responsible for this letter. (This post is not a group post but a personal one)

Transsexual people are very much against the modern transgender agenda and indeed are having their identity erased as transsexual people by the whole self identity / alternate lifestyle / sexual fetishism arguments.*

Oh I thought this was saying you were a signatory, sorry I must have misunderstood.

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 13:54

Exceot I'm not a signatory! I have never even said I was transsexual !

I haven't argued anything in this thread because I agree with the vast majority of it. All I have said is I think both sides need to be open to debate.

My mistake. Apologies. I’m glad you find agreement with points in the letter however the target was not Mumsnet rather the transgender lobbyists who remain silent while violence against women is being acted in their name. My point about NAMALT remains.

arranbubonicplague · 09/12/2018 13:54

We cannot assess individuals on a case-by-case basis which is why we have legal categories and protections to cover protected classes.

MirandaYardley - do you have a sense of how conversations might proceed among those like you and the signatories and those who adopt a different ideological stance (crudely, self-ID aligned TRAs)? Are they happening or is it more a case of nobody appointed the more prominent TRAs and there are no representatives amongst whom discussions might take place? (I hope that makes sense.)

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 13:56

I am a member of the group responsible for this letter. (This post is not a group post but a personal one).

Hence my (reasonable) presumption.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 13:57

^This show that non of the trans community are listening to women and understanding our needs. Calling out threats and violence is great, and using their own names is brave.

But showing bravery doesn't mean they have the right to take away sex segregated spaces. Women and girls still need these spaces.^

Yeah definitely, and I don’t think the trans woman was saying that. She was just pointing out why some are reluctant to speak up rather than saying it was right or there’s anything we can do about it.

I find it so contrary to my core because I immediately just want to swaddle them up and say ‘it’s ok we”ll look after you’ but I know that it’s not the best thing to do for anyone. It’s actually awful to know your boundaries might hurt someone’s feelings but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of your boundaries.

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 14:01

do you have a sense of how conversations might proceed among those like you

I’ve written about this loads of times.

My suggestions to lay the ground are here:

Transsexual Voices Matter

arranbubonicplague · 09/12/2018 14:02

It’s actually awful to know your boundaries might hurt someone’s feelings but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of your boundaries.

Jane Clare Jones' (aka LadyPrincesexual ) has produced
Ontological Totalitarianism by Numbers broken down into 30 bullet points and this might be relevant to you.

21. People refusing to validate your identity may be painful.
22. Something being painful is not conceptually identical to it being a moral harm, structural violence, or an act of oppression.
23. Not getting our needs met is sometimes painful.
24. Sometimes our needs don’t get met because other people also have needs, beliefs, and interests.
25. Thinking you must always have you needs met and refusing to understand why other people may not meet your needs, is narcissistic entitlement.

As ever, I recommend the whole piece.

janeclarejones.com/2018/12/08/ontological-totalitarianism-by-numbers/