Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

[PimmsnLemonade]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-reasons-for-private-schools-oxbridge-success-sqjb6kkgt

There's something absurd about watching a bunch of male humans argue among themselves about which of them should and should not be considered women

you do have a way of cutting to the heart of the matter AAK which I appreciate, even when my female socialisation makes me feel embarrassed or uncomfortable reading it

I think extensive psych evaluations should be part of the process for the patient's own good. When a friend of mine was transitioning over 20 years ago that was one of the things that activisty types were already trying to eliminate, because it meant some people being told "no" and obviously that was an outrage.

It doesnt do anyone any favour when a diagnosis becomes a simply rubber stamp of what a patient wants. You think you are trans ? Then you are.

True transexualism does exist as a genuine psychological disorder (albeit rare compared to todays loose standards) and one that requires very careful evaluation and treatment with transition only ever being the last resort. I think it also vital to understand that feelings associated with transsexualism may be symptoms rather - certain presentations of bipolar, past trauma and abuse and other factors for example can be an important factor.

In no other branch of medicine would you get away with the lazy, self affirming approach that we are seeing.

On that we agree. Irreversible medical treatment should be impossible to access without adequate screening. The fact that some potential patients are turned down is a feature, not a bug.

There's something absurd about watching a bunch of male humans argue among themselves about which of them should and should not be considered women

Well; I am back at home now, and I see that things have gone merrily on their way while I have been chugging up motorways. I'd just like to mention one, teeny, weeny thing.

The letter in the Times was about abusive behaviour by TRAs, wasn't it? The contentious issue is self ID. Self Id is the reason why some of us ( ie raddled old long term transsexual men and women) have come out against the govt proposals. BUT;

Threads wander; we have had a lot of stuff on here about men/ trans/ transgender / transsexual people ( delete according to taste) being in the ladies loos.

I posted (1) that I would continue to use the ladies loos. After two decades I would look pretty odd in the gents. And not be safe.

Ironically someone also posted that I should " tell the truth for once in my life" . I was telling the truth there, wasn't I?

I also posted (2) that people had been in loos that did not correspond to their birth gender in the past, now, and would be in the future. Because it is impossible to police, and cannot be achieved, and if it was achieved, no-one could reliably show that it had been.

This, I thought was a rather apt way to point out a fact, and to try to get us back to what we CAN achieve . Which is a successful campaign against self ID.

But, in a typical bit of unfriendliness,which we often see, Miranda Yardley chose to say that I was " taunting" people with the "you can't get the trannies out of the loo" point. I am not taunting anyone; why would I do that? I am saying that that is an unrealisable aim, and a sideshow.

Anyway, I've been in Surrey, camping on someone else's computer and childcaring my grandchildren for two days. No-one rugby tacked me to the ground for being a " strange man " with two small children, and taking them into the ladies. The two kids know my origin, they know that I was their mothers " dad". They NEVER slip up on pronouns, because they have never known me as anything else but Grannykay.

So, a nice bit of normal life, with everyone getting on. It makes such as calls for 4th spaces fall into context.

We; ie you, and yours, and me, and mine, must try to stop self ID. That CAN be achieved. To say that we must " have no males in the ladies, or that post op TS women should not go in there is not a realisable aim . Or so I believe. I AM allowed to have an opinion, and state it, aren't I? :-)

Thankyou to members who welcome my input on here, being lonely I really do appreciate it; I do bear in mind it is a place for women to have their say so don't wish to offload.

Just wanted to echo Hamster's comment about not using women's spaces. I also avoid them, but will admit I've used the loo occasionally ONLY when I've been desperate. Otherwise I hold on til I get home.

I don't feel good about it. The Daily Mail article records the time I went to join a gym - when shown around the place and led to look over the changing room, I became anxious to see some women completely nude. I felt absolutely terrible - knowing something they didn't - some even smiled at me, in their eyes I was another woman looking to join that's all. I SO longed to tell them the truth rather than deceive them - I believe in honesty - in the hope they might accept me. But when I had explained myself on previous occasions in women's groups, I got thrown out. So rather than deceive them or risk rejection I elected to leave and never went back.

I acknowledge not everyone will accept me (and I certainly don't want to impose myself on people) but it still hurts. I think someone else has already said they hate being transsexual; I feel exactly the same. Unlike the assertions of the TRAs how can I feel proud to be transsexual when all it has brought me is tears and rejection?

we have had a lot of stuff on here about men/ trans/ transgender / transsexual people ( delete according to taste) being in the ladies loos.

No. We have lots of threads here about male people in women and girls spaces. It's about changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, to name a few. It's also about the words to describe ourselves and our biology.

Male transpeople come here and make it all about toilets.

we have had a lot of stuff on here about men/ trans/ transgender / transsexual people ( delete according to taste) being in the ladies loos.

It's never been JUST about the toilets and if you don't "get" that then you're utterly missing the point, and frankly being self-centred.

Try thinking about words like "safeguarding", "erasure", "consent", "protection", as a wider picture instead of whether you can nip in "the ladies" for a pee.

Lost cause, I fear, Hamster, lost cause!

Kay
Your moral compass is your moral compass, and you're right that no-one else can do anything about that.
To quote Frasier (which I do a lot) "ethics are what we do when no-one else is looking"

Sorry Lang, but I wasn't going to contribute further to this thread after Miranda's posts - which were much more articulate than I could possibly convey - but I saw that comment and couldn't let it lie.

I'll go back into "lurk mode" again now

I think you are very articulate!

This, I thought was a rather apt way to point out a fact, and to try to get us back to what we CAN achieve . Which is a successful campaign against self ID

Its like groundhog day.

You are of course welcome to your opinion Kay but its a bit rich coming on here and lecturimg women (again) on what you think they should focus on. (especially when you are cherry picking quotes)

You've skipped over a very important account of a woman needing refuge services following male pattern abuse and control & how she has been treated by those advocating for trans-rights.

At the end she concludes :
The posturing, the sneering, the intimidation.

Do you know what it reminds me of? 10 years of hell. 10 years of belittling, gaslighting, humiliation, threats. I won’t give the info on the physical stuff, that’s mine.

Pure male misogyny, violence, hatred of women. And all this from people who say they feel like me...a woman"

To repeat Hamsters point,
It's never been JUST about the toilets and if you don't "get" that then you're utterly missing the point, and frankly being self-centred.

Its not all about you Kay
Please stop trying to control discussion of serious concerns about safeguarding & women's safety, dignity & privacy.

Women recognise male pattern attempts at control, especially when they have experienced them first hand.
And a lot of women have.

This thread should be added to the ‘break it down for me?’ And ‘FAQ’ threads (if it hasn’t already).

It’s a real-time document of what we mean when we say that abusive Male-pattern behaviours don’t spontaneously resolve when a man transitions. Red flags still wave even when they are made out of lace.

I’m one of the signatories to that letter. We are damned if we do and certainly damned if we don’t. The intention was to speak out on our concerns. Our own private concerns are not for this forum.

The intention was to speak out on our concerns. Our own private concerns are not for this forum.

Although deeply disappointing, I has I believe, as Betty comments being an important discussion.

I absolutely understand that transsexuals are advocating for themselves. that is right and reasonable

just don't be surprised when women do it too please

I believe I’m the only transsexual woman who is a qualified (!) lawyer who has expressed support for women objecting against TRA’s and MRA’s. For that I’ve been sent the most disgusting abuse and vitriol and been dragged into the criminal “justice” system.

There are those that appreciate what we are trying to do. There are those who will always see us as the enemy. C’est la vie, plus ca change.

I’m not surprised at all, by all means speak to the women that I supported and helped. I never claimed for one second to speak for them.

Boudica10 - it was a great letter. The shame about all this is not the letter. Thank you for signing it. My advice going forward would be not to include people who want to leverage being a signatory to make it all about themselves and, while so doing, minimise everything the letter set out to do.

As for previous comment, I agree completely. From what I have seen of others I have no faith in the GRC process to protect women, or transsexual women even, from men acting like pricks. That’s before we even get onto the pandora box that is self-ID

Boudica10
Have you read the thread?
(Its a bit long but the middle bit can probably be skipped)

@langcleg

Agreed

@rowantrees

Yes

My advice going forward would be not to include people who want to leverage being a signatory to make it all about themselves and, while so doing, minimise everything the letter set out to do.

This ^^