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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

533 replies

OrchidInTheSun · 04/12/2018 06:00

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1069731404488077318?s=21

Nic Williams will be debating with Beth Jones, who is an academic at Nottingham Trent www.ntu.ac.uk/staff-profiles/social-sciences/dr-beth-jones

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Wordthe · 04/12/2018 11:17

This new attack on women, this attempt to undermine us from the inside does at least show us that we are making progress to a degree that makes men feel threatened

Datun · 04/12/2018 11:17

Don't these people realise that women have over half the vote in this country?

Watching Serena Williams getting beaten by some also ran who would rather cheat than come no-where in the men's, is absolutely going to make women decide where to vote next.

How can that woman say in one breath how important sport is for females, and then support an ideology that will wipe females from the competition. And also, maintaining it's only important in elite sport?!

No it bloody isn't. It's just as important for the village netball team, or your kids' sports day.

Needmoresleep · 04/12/2018 11:17

Someone suggested on another WH thread that it was worth feeding back to the BBC how pleased we (women) are that this important debate is taking place.

I assume they are getting lots of complaints from TRAs who will not be happy with the breach of the "no debate" policy. It is amazing what a bit of transparency does to their arguments. I had not realised that either Radio 4 or Woman's Hour was for me. What a surprise. The programme seems to be doing what it says on the tin, and giving women a voice.

BlytheSpirits · 04/12/2018 11:17

It isn't a surprise to me that the BBC, trans propaganda machine, didn't give airtime to the hard cold facts that can't be argued against.

Facts > propaganda, but only if you actually hear about them.

Katvonblackdeath · 04/12/2018 11:18

There's a transborg pile in on one of the women's hour tweet.

Screaming "twansphobic" and cissy fitting.

The others are full of indigent biological women going WTF????!!!! Come on public. Keep waking up.

Oh and check India LET THAT PENATRATE Willoughby out. Don't liked it discussed do you India? Much prefer women to be silent don't you hun?

Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity
andyoldlabour · 04/12/2018 11:19

@SecondRow,
Yes I have talked to people in the sport, creating a thread about it on a cycling forum, and whilst quite a few blokes commented on it, only three women replied, which was a bit underwhelming to be honest.
What was also sad, was that whilst many guys agreed with me, the majority were either not bothered or called me transphobic, with one even going so far as to say he could start a legal action against me.
When I listened to the first speaker this morning, two things struck me - they don't like to debate, and absolutely none of their claims are backed up by facts.
I like to use the following example when comparing men's and women's performance in athletics.
82 years ago at the infamous 1936 Berlin Olympics, the great US athlete, Jesse Owens, won 4 Olympic gold medals - 100m, 200m, long jump and 4 x 100m relay.
82 years later, none of the times/distance set by Owens in those events have ever been bettered by a woman, and that is with all the advances in technology, tracks, equipment, diet and sports science which we have today.

RoseCumbrae · 04/12/2018 11:19

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BlytheSpirits · 04/12/2018 11:19

Here's another good image I just saw on FB.

Journos, come ON. This is ridiculous.

Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity
Katvonblackdeath · 04/12/2018 11:20

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Wordthe · 04/12/2018 11:21

As well as a longer reach men's wider shoulders raises their centre of gravity and gives them a very big advantage over women when it comes to upper body strength
That is an advantage in addition to greater muscle mass, tendon and bone strength, higher blood oxygenation levels greater cardiovascular capacity.

BettyDuMonde · 04/12/2018 11:22

Equestrian sports are mixed sex, btw.
And female jockeys ride against male jockeys.

Theoretically women compete against the men in all levels of motorsport, but none have actually made it to formula 1, as far as I am aware (not my bag though).

None of the above sports are powered by the human body, of course.

Datun · 04/12/2018 11:22

Ok then. I wonder if somebody would like to tweet the likes of Paula Radcliffe, or Serena Williams, or Jessica Ennis Hill, and ask them if they tried hard enough? Or maybe they just trained in between doing their hair and cooking the tea and weren’t really trying at all?

I'm not on Twitter. I would love it if someone could tweet these women to say that Beth Jones, an academic at Nottingham Trent has just been on national radio to claim that women really aren't trying hard enough, and if men competed against them, they might be able to improve enough to beat them.

SecondRow · 04/12/2018 11:27

andy, well, thanks for having the conversation! it really feels like very few men give a shit. Which supports the gender critical argument that they're not forced to take an interest because their dominant position in sports is in no way threatened.

LikeDust · 04/12/2018 11:28

I have just noted that I am absolutely fucking furious. This is an absolute fucking outrage and I have done so much intellectualising about it I didn't notice this great lava flow of fury raging beneath my surface calm...
Arggggghhhhh!!!!! AngryAngryAngry

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 04/12/2018 11:28

If all that is needed is for women to try harder then how about mens sports are opened to both sexes?

(Oh wait, that already happens in lots of sports...)

LangCleg · 04/12/2018 11:30

Can I just say - no time to post extensively this morning but thank you all for doing such a sterling job!

And welcome newbies.

arranbubonicplague · 04/12/2018 11:30

There have been F1 women drivers (only one of whom scored points) but I'm very attached to this woman's story (Women's Grand Prix):

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45796892

However, for me, a lot of this comes down to equipment and coaching. It's only comparatively recently that there has been decent money on the equipment and different training that women need.

A family friend is an Olympian and World Medallist. She competed in the first women's rowing events in the Olympics and took a silver. They were competing in a men's boat that was far too heavy for them and had had negligible access to the training facilities at their university. But, after they took the Silver, suddenly, they were given a boat of the right weight (and oars of an appropriate size) and they had someone who understood female physiology to train them. They won the World Championships.

In sport, we're nowhere near equality of opportunity in access to equipment and/or training. And we'll never get anywhere if all of the new female athletes respond well to the current coaching etc. - there'll be no incentive to research the actual needs of females and their specific problems (e.g., the female athlete triad that involves amenorrhoea), specific pattern of ligament injuries and micro fractures.

LikeDust · 04/12/2018 11:32

Maybe men just need to try a bit harder at getting pregnant and giving birth. Lazy self-limiting fuckers.

LikeDust · 04/12/2018 11:34

Apologies for my low brow contributions and thank you to the posters with your great posts.

andyoldlabour · 04/12/2018 11:36

@BettyDuMonde,

A few women have entered F1 in the past the best known being Desire Wilson (has a grandstand named after her at Brands Hatch) and Lella Lombardi. More recently, Suzi Wolf the wife of Toto Wolf (the team manager of Mercedes) was a chief test driver for Williams.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Formula_One_drivers

To be an F1 driver, you need to have low bodyweight combined with extreme strength in the neck and shoulder muscles, most drivers cycle a lot to keep fit and Jensen Button used to be a serious triathlon competitor.

megletthesecond · 04/12/2018 11:37

like Grin

Katvonblackdeath · 04/12/2018 11:39

Grin likedust your comment was perfect.

I'm busy laughing at them getting hopelessly triggered by the lack of gap between trans and woman.

Burn women's hour. Burn them all.

There was a good cartoon on that theme...I shall search

Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity
Terfing · 04/12/2018 11:40

I feel bad for Beth's students. I hope she doesn't teach feminism. In fact,I hope she doesn't teach full stop. I'd want a refund!

LangCleg · 04/12/2018 11:40

Apologies for my low brow contributions

I am a big fan of your low brow contributions!

LikeDust · 04/12/2018 11:43

Flowers meg, kat and lang

I worried I was lowering the tone x

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