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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

533 replies

OrchidInTheSun · 04/12/2018 06:00

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1069731404488077318?s=21

Nic Williams will be debating with Beth Jones, who is an academic at Nottingham Trent www.ntu.ac.uk/staff-profiles/social-sciences/dr-beth-jones

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Katvonblackdeath · 04/12/2018 11:44

Snigger

Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity
LikeDust · 04/12/2018 11:49

Grin that's great.

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 04/12/2018 11:52

Likedust - you made me chuckle! 👍

hackmum · 04/12/2018 11:55

I've just looked up Rebecca Adlington's training regime. Despite winning Olympic gold in swimming events, Adlington's times were still way behind the men. Disappointing, Adlington - clearly not trying hard enough. Perhaps Beth Jones could explain to Adlington where she was going wrong - my guess it was those lazy Sundays:

Monday: From 6am to 8am, swimming about 7,000-8,000 metres per two-hour session in the Olympic pool at Nottingham Uni. After the morning swim, she goes home to have breakfast and rest. She would then go running or circuit training for an hour at around 3pm, before returning to the pool around 5pm for another two-hour training session, and then another gym session before bed.

Tuesday: Up at 5am for a high intensity session. In the afternoon it is an aerobic session, involving steady swimming for endurance training. These sessions are repeated on Thursday and Friday evening.

Wednesday: Just one 2 hour session in a 50m pool in the afternoon, followed by an hour of weights in the gym, which is next to the pool. Total training session is about 4 hours.

Thursday and Friday: Another 5am start, with both morning and evening sessions in the pool morning and evening.

Saturday: 7am start for one session in the pool. She says that “by the end of the week I’ve swum 65,000-70,000m. For the rest of the day, I get to indulge my passion for shopping. I am into shoes in a big way. I have dozens of pairs.”

Sunday – Rest Day: Sleep until 10am and then just relax for the day.

www.motleyhealth.com/fitness/rebecca-adlington-olympic-gold-medal-her-swimming-workout

silentcrow · 04/12/2018 11:56

Yes men absolutely could flatten a woman, I think with martial arts it's the respect thing why they don't. In competition amongst older children where they've had to compete mixed I've always seen the refs decide that some moves are not allowed beforehand because it's mixed or if say a higher belt ends up fighting a lower belt as there's not enough in the catagory otherwise

Respect is the alpha and omega of martial arts, and it's why me and my daughters train in karate (where else can teen girls get respect from boys?). But I know my limit - as soon as the junior boys hit 14 or so, they wipe the floor with me. Their height, reach and speed is too much for my older body. It's fun - it trains your brain in tactics - but I know if those kids, or any of the men, didn't respect me I'd be seriously injured. Men who join our club and aren't respectful to everyone during sparring don't last long. I've seen two thugs pretty much drummed out. And one was partly my fault - my female sensei paired me with a new starter who had complained about mixed sparring, claiming "women don't hit, it'll be boring". Ahem. He was...surprised.

But training sparring is different to competition - that does need to be matched carefully, using sex, experience and in some sports, weight categories. I saw the BJJ thread briefly and I could understand the mum's concerns about possible abuse, although i think it showed a lack of trust in the club more than anything else, and that in itself is concerning.

Thanks to everyone for commenting on these WH sessions - I always miss them due to work or classes.

Notevenmyrealname · 04/12/2018 11:58

Not read the full thread but the bit that got me was when she said women might not be pushing themselves as hard as men and that’s why they don’t perform as well. How patronising can one person be?

NeurotrashWarrior · 04/12/2018 12:05

Just catching up.

Love how Nic gets little bits of biology in.

"Subset of male people" - direct quote.

GodThisIsShit · 04/12/2018 12:07

As a teen I competed at junior international level in a very physical sport. Men and women competed separately but at my club we trained together and the physical difference between my body and the bodies of the boys my age that I trained against was clear - particularly in the gym and in weight training. They had much more muscle, bigger hands, bigger shoulders, bigger thighs. If one of them transitioned, those features wouldn't change and that would have given them a distinct advantage over us girls. To suggest otherwise feels like gaslighting.

Nightcloud · 04/12/2018 12:10

I have always felt that THIS will be what peak trans a nation of sports lovers and of fair play, And the TRA’s know it too. Just watch. Its so ludicrous. And as an aside where are the female to male athletes competing... Funny that.

arranbubonicplague · 04/12/2018 12:13

It's infuriating. Older women did not have access to decent training, coaching, or equipment and there were no women's events for their disciplines in major competitions (e.g., sprinting didn't turn up for women until the 1960s for the Olympics; 1992 was first biathlon for women in Winter Olympics).

For a brief period, it seems like there was money to spend on women's athletics and other disciplines - and now, women won't make the teams and the money will continue to go to natal males and all of our knowledge will be how to equip and train natal males.

Datun · 04/12/2018 12:13

Nic should not have to even address such idiocy. Giving it air time is acknowledging that it has some kind of credibility.

When it, quite shockingly, doesn't.

Women don't try hard enough. Transmen are competing with men, we just don't realise it. Transwomen deserve to beat women, because they are depressed. A future with transwomen dominating female sport isn't a bad thing because misogyny rulz ok.

This sort of argument should not be broadcast. It's just an embarrassment.

indieshuffle · 04/12/2018 12:13

Its basically just lies and wishful/ magical thinking from Beth Jones and the like isn't it. So insulting to women and sportswomen everywhere.

Balance is about equal time and opportunity to air views, maybe a bit of prompting for the less experienced in covering their talking points, but not a presenter trying to make both sides look to be of equal worth, when one side might be unsubstantiated nonsense.

Fuckers.

NeurotrashWarrior · 04/12/2018 12:16

I haven't read the full thread.

Currently having a do with my asthma and I have a review; no idea what my peak flow should now be but I know I'm over the hill.

When I checked it reminded me of the actual difference in lung capacity between men and women, from a really early age.

Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity
NeurotrashWarrior · 04/12/2018 12:17

I can't find anywhere that has researched any correlation to athletic output in trans people, changes etc. We done have the evidence but it's looking pretty obvious.

NeurotrashWarrior · 04/12/2018 12:18

Look at the correlating heights of m and f.

Ang69 · 04/12/2018 12:19

What makes me sick to my stomach is that we are actually debating this. How can people be so stupid? I was sat with my mouth open listening to this Beth saying that women could push themselves harder. Between this and fucking Brexit I am utterly despairing.

hackmum · 04/12/2018 12:20

Nic should not have to even address such idiocy. Giving it air time is acknowledging that it has some kind of credibility.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's like arguing with flat earthers. We all know it's ridiculous, everyone knows it's ridiculous, why are we even pretending it isn't? Surely even the idiotic Harrop knows it's ridiculous?

BubonicBudgie · 04/12/2018 12:23

Like dust thanks for making me laugh. I was seriously pissed off slightly peeved to realise our top women athletes were just lazy.
Now where do I get one of these grants from ?

Wordthe · 04/12/2018 12:23

I'm inclined to think that, ultimately, Beth has shot herself in the foot so obviously weak and risible was her 'argument'
Therefore, by extension the 'transwomen are women' community also took a hit in the podiatry area 🤭😉

CheerChristmas · 04/12/2018 12:25

Transwomen deserve to beat women, because they are depressed.

What's next, let anorexic people starve because they are depressed, let people jump off a bridge because they are depressed, let people retire thirty years early because they are depressed?

Would Beth let burglars into her house and do as they please because they are depressed?

LizzieSiddal · 04/12/2018 12:25

I have just listened and I'm just fucking fuming!

I don't understand how anyone can be so stupid!

HumberElla · 04/12/2018 12:28

Beth’s relevant research includes reviewing 31 competitive sports policies regarding trans inclusion. The abstract to this piece of research (available in public domain) concludes:

Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.

Wordthe · 04/12/2018 12:28

Thanks for posting that chart @Neuro, I didn't realise the difference in lung capacity was quite that big!
now I don't feel so bad for being so athletically behind my partner despite doing more training

LizzieSiddal · 04/12/2018 12:29

Nic should not have to even address such idiocy. Giving it air time is acknowledging that it has some kind of credibility.

But the problem is, MPs, the BBC and many, many organisations don't think it is idiocy, they are embracing it.

Wordthe · 04/12/2018 12:30

No athletic advantage??
what bullshit
who is funding her research
who is she working for/who is working through her