Can boys be civilised, as in, made civil?

[NineNine]

I have dds. For every mother I meet who has a ds who is a bit loud or physical or unruly, at some point we have a conversation where she implies or says outright that boys are so different and my girls are ‘easy’ more or less because they are girls.

It drives me crazy because I have put a lot of effort into teaching my dds to be empathetic and considerate but also not to accept bad behaviour from others. But time and again I see boys being aggressive and destructive and it’s just shrugged off because boys will be boys...

Obviously NABALT, but I wondered if anyone has had dss who they have struggled with but feel they have had a positive impact on their behaviour? Have the mothers of these disruptive boys tried their best, and know better than me what boys are really like? Or have they been shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical male behaviour?

I think boys and girls have roughly equal propensity to be difficult and aggressive it's just that we (at all levels of society from the small nuclear family to much wider social groups and media etc) respond differently to the same behaviour
in girls we chastise and pathologize behaviour which in boys we condone and encourage

But anyway it seems to me that the question asked by the OP boils down to 'is it nature or nurture?'
don't you think that's a bit of an outdated question?
I mean come on the two are inextricably intertwined and impossible to untangle

I have put a lot of effort into teaching my dds to be empathetic and considerate what kind of girls have you got? Are they not empathetic and considerate by nature and therefore don't need to be taught to be? Tut tut.

Unlike my typical male boys who are aggressive and destructive but boys will be boys

Yes, boys can be parented to be lovely men in the future

But it's hard work to combat the modelling of other men, and male socialisation

It's entirely possible though

I remember one of the 'Educating ... Programmes (could have been Manchester) and there was an incident between two students, male and female. The boy was punished and excluded. There was a huge outcry because, of course, the camera footage showed it was the girl who had been responsible.
There was then a social media debate showing concern that many people in authority expect boys to be in the wrong. Label a child etc.
As a teacher, I saw misbehaviour from both male and female students.I think it is dangerous to label certain types of behaviour as 'girl' behaviour or 'boy' behaviour. There is a lot of research to show that a child quickly learns to 'label' themselves.

Nature first - eg base character can be seen at 6 mo - nurture there after.

I have two gentle boys and two tomboy girls. I would say the only differences I have found raising them is that my boys seemed to need a lot more physical exercise than my girls.

I think it is very much about role models: my DH, BiL and FiL are all excellent men and my boys very much have their values rather than the ones some of their friends seem to have.

Like a poster upthread, the stand out violent man I know came from a very violent family. And my male friends in general are very much turning into their dads in middle age. I think how people are raised is difficult for them to escape.

It’s confirmation bias. People tend to look for patterns and when they see ones that confirm what they already think they subconsciously log it as ‘proof’ so they see boys behaving badly and think “boys will be boys” and move on but will comment on girls behaving in that way because they believe it to be unusual. Or they’ll come up with some explanation that makes an excuse for it like “oh she’s a tomboy”, “she’s had too much sugar”, “she’s influenced by her brothers”, etc. It’s caused by uncritical thinking and reliance on stereotypes and obvs is a load of nonsense.

Noteven, is the confirmation bias not the other way ie the belief that boys are bad and girls are good? That assumption is screaming out of the OP. You can’t deny that most mothers in the UK seem to want girls. So boys “bad” behaviour would be noted more and taken as confirmation they are more, whereas girls bad behaviour is ignored or explained away? Look I don’t have girls so maybe I haven’t noticed but I have never seen girls being chastised for loud, physical behaviour. Who is chastising them?

Neurotrash, I started a thread on here about the experiment they did to see how babies associated domestic chores with either men and women. All of the babies tested recognised both sexes as equally associated with domestic chores and baby care. The only exception was car maintenance which babies associated with men only.
I had just eleven comments. I wondered whether this forum does not want to acknowledge progress with regard to equal domestic responsibilities.

Phuquocdreams I mean boys, from birth, will be allowed to get away with more than girls because they’re boys and that’s what boys do. Girls will be spoken too more softly and praised for quiet “good” behaviour and so consequently will learn not to be as rowdy and boisterous. This then feeds into the parents’ assumption that girls are naturally better behaved because they haven’t taken their own treatment of the children into consideration. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy which they then see as innate rather than a result of conditioning from birth. The confirmation bias then comes in when their children are in a mixed group. They already have these ideas about girls v boys and because their children have been socialised to behave that way they conform to them and they are convinced that they were right all along.

@mrsmuddlepies

This whole thread would be sorted out with the episodes of no more girls and boys.

I must add though the bbc experiments were based on mainly middle class babies. But yes it's a good reflection. Ime gender social stereotypes start to be picked up a bit later though; my ds went through a pink is for girls phase around 3-4 picked up from peers at nursery.

Simply why stereotypes need to be challenged. There's always going to be children who fit the traditional stereotypes; the key is to try to reframe life and labels for them so it is not a self fulfilling stereotype by proxy.

Of course boys can be civilised. Although I'd be interested in what your definition of civilised is. Because frankly, as a "tomboy" (apologies for those that hate that term) I was an absolute handful. Kicked two guys arses (6th grade) that we're picking on me. At the same time I was top of the class academically.

Yes society (patriarchy) has a lot to do with it but I do believe how they are raised has a lot to do with it as well. Don't get me wrong not Mum blaming at all, but, the saying it takes a village to raise a child, does have relevance imo. Let's be real, if you weren't getting what was needed from your parent/parents, did you not seek advice/opinion from others?

My DS's have been complimented as young children in a restaurant numerous times. Civilised enough? Or what about the times they've stepped up defending girls (also boys) being bullied. Civilised enough? Or how about the times when they have (amazingly) reacted calmly with a teacher yelling in their face, accusing them of something they haven't done? - This actually happened to DS2 today.

Or what about when for the good of the team (teammates injury) they step into an unfamiliar position and are subjected to criticism by the coach, and still put their head down and do their best. Only to then express their disappointment and anxiety in the car on the way home. I think that's pretty civilised. Because frankly as the mum, I had to step away before I stormed up and told the coach what a patronising prick he is. But yeah that's just female socialisation. Isn't it?

Rant over.

There is definitely an element of confirmation bias. My 6yo DS loves board games, reading, puzzles, crafts and role play. He also likes football and superheroes. He can sit for ages playing happily, loves a cuddle, speaks politely but can also get overexcited, boisterous, mischievous - and I will inevitably get a comment along the "boys eh" lines. So much so my DH and I joke about it. It's like people just can't or don't want to see anything that doesn't fit with their world view.

MsJuniper
Absolutely there is. Your DS6 sounds adorable, my boys both teens (well one technically adult now) were much the same. All children are capable of being overexcited and boisterous. You're fortunate you just get the "boys eh" comment. I was asked if they'd been tested for ADHD. Of course that was what the media were promoting at the time. Thank goddess for their stillness, with puzzles and stories and craft.

Ms Juniper This was my point. It is more to do with perceptions than reality. I was out with my DC last week. Another mum commented on the behaviour of the children about typical boys playing noisily while the girls sat quietly. My DD and another little girl were colouring with some pens we had brought with us while her DSs were playing with a toy car that they had brought with them. This went on for about 5 mins and then her little boys came over and started colouring. They then sat and drew pictures for about half an hour. Nobody commented on their behaviour even though they sat quietly for a considerably longer period of time than they had been playing.

The title of your post is ridiculous and offensive.

I was a boy, and I think the OP has a point. Especially this - 'Or have they been shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical male behaviour?'

Some people are just shit parents. Coupled with that, societies have always had a use for violent men, and still do. Sports and cannon fodder. Entertainment and war. So it's tolerated, to a degree. Encouraged even.

the whole "girls are angels and boys are unruly" is nothing more than a stereotype. There is absolutely no biological reason why a boy cannot grow up to be a strong, respectful gentleman.

There is certainly no shortage of cases where girls (from a toddler up to adult women) can behave even worse than boys/men. And if alcohol is involved then all the more so.

It all depends on how they are brought up and what they are exposed to for eg what others expect of them and if they are treated a certain way because of their sex.