Can boys be civilised, as in, made civil?

[NineNine]

I have dds. For every mother I meet who has a ds who is a bit loud or physical or unruly, at some point we have a conversation where she implies or says outright that boys are so different and my girls are ‘easy’ more or less because they are girls.

It drives me crazy because I have put a lot of effort into teaching my dds to be empathetic and considerate but also not to accept bad behaviour from others. But time and again I see boys being aggressive and destructive and it’s just shrugged off because boys will be boys...

Obviously NABALT, but I wondered if anyone has had dss who they have struggled with but feel they have had a positive impact on their behaviour? Have the mothers of these disruptive boys tried their best, and know better than me what boys are really like? Or have they been shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical male behaviour?

YABU to think that some/any mothers of boys have been "shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical male behaviour?". Most parents, be that of boys or girls, are doing the best they know how.

What do you think causes the higher levels of violence in men?

Because it’s either innate (i.e. these violent boys/men cannot be made civilised) or it’s conditioned (i.e. they can be), which was my original question.

Well, to begin with, what do you mean by “unruly”? It’s not necessarily the same as being violent. Neither is being “boisterous” or “physical”.

It may be your reference to 'mothers' when often there are two parents who are equally responsible for raising responsible human beings.

Yeah that was shitty of me. I would guess it’s because I’ve had these conversations with other mothers mostly, but I have heard it from fathers too. But I’m sorry I put it like that.

In your initial post you don’t identify the problem as male violence, it is boys being ‘loud or physical or unruly’. Yeah, boys can be all of those things, it’s totally normal childhood behaviour. The far greater problem is girls being told they shouldn’t be loud or physical or unruly. They should, because it’s normal childhood behaviour.

If people are accepting violence that’s an entirely different thing.

No, I’m one of those mums of girls who is worried for the future safety of my dds in a world where male violence is shrugged off as inevitable.

No one shrugs male violence off as inevitable, what nonsense!

I’ve never seen anyone encourage their sons to be violent towards girls. Some turn a blind eye to a bit of rough and tumble between boys but the attitude is different when girls are involved. Even those parents who have said boys will be boys know when things have gone to far and discipline.

I think you’re a bit naive.

I'm not really sure why your post has caused such offense op
it's very obviously a set up
that's why

Yeah, boys can be all of those things, it’s totally normal childhood behaviour.

So it’s totally normal childhood behaviour. What process turns loud and physical and unruly boys into civilised men? Does it just happen naturally? Or do they get told not to be loud, physical and unruly?

What about the loud, physical and unruly grown up men? Did the natural process just not happen for them? Or did no one tell them not to be loud, physical and unruly?

it's very obviously a set up
that's why

Not a set up. I’ll admit my title was inflammatory, but my question is genuine.

Interesting reactions. By way of anecdata:

My chum recently said, after her tot DS ran over my foot with his scooter "oh no Anlaf's foot ha he's such a boy eh?". Which I found interesting and depressing and have filed away to prod her about another time.

And then my other chum says most times I see her that her infant DS is less good at communicating and more robust and just breaks things and... than her daughter, because he is a boy.

And she is determined there is no other explanation for it.

(These are metropolitan types, although they both grew up with rigid, traditional gender roles)

It drives me crazy because I have put a lot of effort into teaching my dds to be empathetic and considerate

Can you be 100% sure the result is due to your effort? They might’ve been like that anyway.

I agree with LovesLaboursLost that there's a difference between normal childhood physical play, and violence. Equating the two would be ascribing adult intentions to young kid's play

Girls are socialized to play nicely and not be loud & boisterous, so I think there's an element of nurture from both sides - yes we accept boys being more physical, but we should also accept it from girls, as physical play/being loud etc is healthy

I'm not sure I believe that this is what leads to male violence.

Loud, physical and unruly is different from aggressive and destructive though, or are you grouping all those behaviours together? From what I have seen boys are more likely to be loud, physical and unruly (well most toddlers are unruly), but girls are just as capable too. However I wouldn’t say those behaviours definitely have a negative impact. IMO more children should be allowed more physical play. I don’t think many parents excuse destructive and aggressive behaviour with the excuse that their child is a boy do they? What’s an example? I have a dd and a ds, but he’s only 3 months so I don’t know how different he’ll be to my dd who is fairly loud and unruly.

They might’ve been like that anyway.

That’s true. Do you think they are like that because they are girls? Do you think if I’d had a boy that I’d be shaking my head and saying, god boys are so much harder?

I'm not sure I believe that this is what leads to male violence.

What do you think causes it?

I don’t know how those people who claim to have “boisterous boys” can put up with it. I absolutely cannot be bothered with noise or aggression from any child, regardless of their sex. I like a nice peaceful home environment and will not be deprived of that by the simple fact that my child is male.

I also think people just say shit. Not a clear concise summation of their world view just noise to avoid dead air. Yesterday I said another mother had it easy because her kid isn’t as tall as mine so it must be easier to find clothes. Complete mindless twaddle and I didn’t mean anything, except i sounded like a cow.
Crap parenting is crap parenting.
I don’t know how old your daughter/s are but if heard it said often that teenage girls are harder because boys can’t get pregnant. Which also total misogynistic bullshit.

Why is this on the feminism board?

Oh god I know so many mothers of girls like this, hopefully wont be so smug once the teenage years hit. Just remember tbeir father was a horrible, destructive, aggressive, disruptive, unruly biy at one point and OP chose to procreate with him nonetheless.

I am also deep in zone 6 and living in a an area where childcare is almost inevitably split along gender lines. I wonder sometimes if there is a bit of a positive feedback loop.... childcare is is done almost exclusively by mothers day to day, or if not then outsourced to a female carer (out of all my friends and DS' classmates, I know TWO mums who work full time. That's out of a good fifty families). So we are women, liking on the whole things women often like, raising girls who like those things too and gets lots of lovely positive feedback when they do them. Like crafting and board games and art and whatever. So girls become more adept and content doing those things and their mums have lovely cosy relationships with them and everyone is happy.

Meanwhile, the boys, who often want to do boy things that just don't appeal to women on the whole (like play fighting, football, lining up cars, chasing games) are over the other side of the room going feral with each other whilst their mothers ignore them or communicate with them badly and just don't know how to connect through play. In 7 years of parenting I've never seen a mum play fight with her kid or play football for a sustained length of time. Seen plenty of dads do it though.

I truly believe boys and girls are on the whole different and have different needs, whether through socialisation or genetics I don't know. And I'm not sure we meet boys needs massively well as women or really know how to respond to "boys being boys". Isn't that why they say boys needs plenty of time with male role models?

Usual caveats apply.... not all boys, not all girls, not all parents, are like that.

Sorry LangCleg, I was hoping to hear from parents who have struggled and succeeded with their ds’s behaviour and who didn’t just shrug it off with a boys will be boys.

But I fucked up the title and brought a load of not-my-mini-Nigels to the board.

Just remember tbeir father was a horrible, destructive, aggressive, disruptive, unruly biy at one point and OP chose to procreate with him nonetheless.

Nope, by all accounts my DH was as lovely a boy as he is a man.

As the mother of a very gentle and quiet little boy I don't like your title. It is true some children are frequently loud, rough and annoying. It is sexist to assume these children are always boys. They are not.

I have two boys, primary school age and under. Neither of them are violent or aggressive, neither are allowed to be pushy or unpleasant to other children they are playing with. They are expected to be calm and sensible, as their age allows, and to listen to instructions.

I assume that their good behaviour is due to reasonable parenting combined with their natural personalities. Some boys and girls are going to be more challenging than others and need more parenting. Some boys and girls will get less than adequate parenting and the results will be poor behaviour in those susceptible to it.

What you're asking, I think, is whether sexist stereotypes affect parenting? Clearly they do, and it's not good for either sex.

What do you think causes it?

I think that's a really complex question, and I'm not an expert, just a parent

My gut feeling is that its a mix of a bunch of factors - boys not being taught to handle angry feelings correctly (ie "boys don't cry" mentality), idealization of violence in the media (video games, tv etc), poor male role models in some cases, learned attitudes to women (objectification etc)

Loud & boisterous play at toddler/preschool/early primary age seems to me to be healthy for both sexes

I should have specified ‘boisterous’ boys or aggressive boys or some such in the title, I regret that.

But I did the obligatory Not All Boys... in the OP