Can boys be civilised, as in, made civil?

[NineNine]

I have dds. For every mother I meet who has a ds who is a bit loud or physical or unruly, at some point we have a conversation where she implies or says outright that boys are so different and my girls are ‘easy’ more or less because they are girls.

It drives me crazy because I have put a lot of effort into teaching my dds to be empathetic and considerate but also not to accept bad behaviour from others. But time and again I see boys being aggressive and destructive and it’s just shrugged off because boys will be boys...

Obviously NABALT, but I wondered if anyone has had dss who they have struggled with but feel they have had a positive impact on their behaviour? Have the mothers of these disruptive boys tried their best, and know better than me what boys are really like? Or have they been shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical male behaviour?

My post was meant to be the very opposite of NAMALT. Here I am the parent with that child but we are desperately trying to help him.

Posted in feminism so we can all talk about how nasty boys and men are obvs.

My daughters the uncivilised one, she rolls around in mud like a pig in shit, has ADHD and does not stop running around the room, bouncing off the walls and hitting things, sometimes people.

My sons only little but all he wants to do is cuddle and kiss everyone.

I do hate the phrase ‘boys will be boys’ though.

Oh sorry mnerXX I thought your post was coming from a feeling of being criticised or your ds being criticised and I was trying to say there's no need to feel that way when you're obviously working so hard and so intelligently to support your ds.

Oh goodness, EarlyWalker, no one has done any such thing. Why do you think feminists would want to do that?

Ah, NAMALT in action, always such a pleasure to see.

Well if the OP is going to make a goady, shit generalisation in the fucking thread title...

What I do notice is in slightly older children. Preteen and young teens. The boys, around here, are overall more inconsiderate in public. Riding bikes quickly on pavements and nearly knocking over pedestrians. Riding without lights. Hanging around in huge groups and commenting to passers by. I don't think this is biological behaviour. At some point, they must be getting different messages. I don't think it is individual parents particularly either, more a societal thing. We literally never see a single group of girls doing this. I know some of them, and individually they are pleasant enough, but the group behaviour is different. Where does it come from?

MNerXX - I think you sound like a great Mum, clearly doing everything that anyone could expect.

I'll say it again - normal childhood 'boisterous' or 'violent' behaviour is nothing like adult male violence. Anyone who see's worrying behaviour is any child should be concerned about the home environment. I did some pretty horrid things as a child, why - because I was living with a man who could explode at any moment and I had a huge amount of anxious energy.

MnerXX thanks for posting.

No no-one is claiming that boisterous behaviour is bad, but many were implying that boisterous behaviour and hitting other children is solely down to bad parenting.

I don’t encourage my boy to act crazy in the supermarket because he’s a boy. But when he does I try my best to get him to stop. All the while subject to tutting and ‘helpful’ comments from strangers. According to some on this thread I must be patting myself on the back delighted about what a ‘real’ boy I’m raising and that he’s bound to be a violent criminal when he’s older.

I think about this a lot NineNine and dh and I have talked about it a lot. I have a daughter and 3 sons.

We have high expectations for all our children, but speaking just about raising boys here, they need a high behaviour bar and lots of meaningful and labour intensive work. Dh models this for them, he absolutely comes down like a ton of bricks if they disrespect me or their sister. Dh is very clear that they earn respect by being respectable.

We also emphasise bodily autonomy and explicit consent in smaller moments all the time. They grow up hearing that everyone is the boss of their own bodies, that you back right away when you hear or 'see' a no, and that strength is a responsibility to help people.

We personally have made some outside of normal family choices that help us control the kind of peer socialisation that can happen with boys.

They spend a lot of time with some very badass girls, too.

Fantastiqueangel - I don't ever see this - at all. I live near a large boys school and the boys very polite. Always make room for the buggy, they'll chat to my son at length. Apologise if they are in the way.

Adding - no unsupervised internet. All screen use is heavily monitored.

Exactly safeandwarm. Some children respond and learn from being told no to hitting etc and for others it takes a lot longer and a lot more perseverance.

I agree polly

That's good Polly. I think it's mostly peer pressure, which is why I get so cross when some parents act as though their decisions are made in a vacuum. We do all affect each other. A couple of parents let their child behave in an inconsiderate way, and others join on. More noticeable in a small town perhaps as well.

HTKS - I used to play football with my DS, until he got so much better than me that it's not fun for either of us anymore. See also - cricket, baseball, tennis, badminton.... The only physical game that we can really play with each other is tag, and frankly I give it a year before he is consistently faster than me. He's only 13 (and I'm not terrible at sports)

Meanwhile DD sits quietly and paints and draws...

Oh goodness, EarlyWalker, no one has done any such thing. Why do you think feminists would want to do that?

🤔

My son has never been violent but he can be boisterous. But then so can I. I was happy playing pirates and fighting sharks as a child and quite happy to do those things with ds.
I would have been equally happy and comfortable with a daughter who liked bouncing on beds, singing really loud and scooting very fast. Kids have mad energy sometimes, boys OR girls sometimes have trouble being sedate. That doesn't mean they are being brought up to hurt people. Excusing violence is just shit parenting no matter which sex.

Is it possible for girls to be less whiney / bitchy / cliquey/ spiteful I wonder? I don't know it's just every time I see a girl behave like that I hear their mums say "oh well that's girls for you"

It drives me crazy because I put so much effort into encouraging my boys to be friendly, inclusive, and not to hold grudges. But time and time again i see the girls in little gangs, falling out with each other excluding one of the group, telling tales on each other etc.. .And it's just shrugged off because girls will be girls and all that.

Have any of the mums of these spiteful whiners tried their best and know better than me what girls are really like? Or have they been shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical female behaviour?

missy do let me know about the stats for bitchiness against boys and men that’s the equivalent of violence against women and girls, won’t you?

RiverTam do let me know the stats for how often you spectacularly miss the point won’t you?

Well, if I’ve missed your point could you explain it to me?

AssassinatedBeauty Not sure if that was a serious question - so I’ll ignore it.

Polly makes a good point, I live near a secondary school and the boys always move out of the way for the pram, it’s the girls that stand there and don’t move, expecting me to go on the road - every time without fail.
Maybe while we’ve all been thinking boys are so unciviliced we must raise them to be respectful good people, we’ve forgotten how to raise our daughters to do the same?

Missy the word "bitchy" is a sexist slur. Aside from this, I haven't encountered minimisation of 'mean girl' behaviour personally, as a parent of a boy and two girls. But I agree it should always be tackled head on and not tolerated. As a parent of a ds I didn't find the op offensive as I have seen exactly the kind of minimisation and actionless hand wringing she describes.

This thread reminds me of a 'bounty' thread I once started about cats shitting in my garden and found it yielded post after post criticising dogs.

My point was (obviously) that the OP simply trotted out a boring old fashioned stereotype of a boy. Well I did the same for girls. Yes we can all generalise and stereotype can’t we? Or we could try the intelligent approach of treating all children as individuals.