Can boys be civilised, as in, made civil?

[NineNine]

I have dds. For every mother I meet who has a ds who is a bit loud or physical or unruly, at some point we have a conversation where she implies or says outright that boys are so different and my girls are ‘easy’ more or less because they are girls.

It drives me crazy because I have put a lot of effort into teaching my dds to be empathetic and considerate but also not to accept bad behaviour from others. But time and again I see boys being aggressive and destructive and it’s just shrugged off because boys will be boys...

Obviously NABALT, but I wondered if anyone has had dss who they have struggled with but feel they have had a positive impact on their behaviour? Have the mothers of these disruptive boys tried their best, and know better than me what boys are really like? Or have they been shrugging their shoulders all along and not even attempted to avoid what they believe is typical male behaviour?

That’s true. Do you think they are like that because they are girls?

I suspect there are some innate differences between boys and girls which would, even with perfectly identical socialisation, result in overlapping normal distributions for many things one might care to measure.

Who knows why your individuals are the way they are, though.

What age r u talking about? From observation I notice that more (not all!) girls are able to sit down and focus at an earlier age (like age 2-3). Someone mentioned that it may be due to higher testosterone in boys. It is hard to communicate and reason with toddlers (boys also tend to have later language development), especially When they frequently throw tantrums. Thus - while I believe we should have the same behaviour standards, it can be hard in the pre-communicative years. Parents should remove a child does not stop violent/anti-social behaviour though.

I hate this. I have a girl and then a boy. I stood in playgrounds with my girl and her friends and the parents watched and gently guided their behaviour. Three years later I stood in the same playgrounds with my son and his friends and watched as the same parents did nothing to intervene or to guide but just fondly tutted and said ‘boys will be boys’ with a rueful smile. It drives me ballistic.

Boys are capable of behaving in a moderate and calm way but parents are very invested in the idea of tough, rambunctious boys. My son and his friends horseplay with each other in a way that simply wouldn’t be permitted among girls.

I suspect there are some innate differences between boys and girls which would, even with perfectly identical socialisation, result in overlapping normal distributions for many things one might care to measure.

Do you think those innate differences would still lead to more violent men than women, even with the hypothetical identical socialisation?

Woah, OP I think you need to adjust your view of children just as much as your 'boys will be boys' friends. Your subsequent posts about adult male violence and parallels with boys play are totally inappropriate - I've seen just as many girls hitting as boys (talking about 'developmentally normal' so around age 2 I suppose) and I'd never dream of suggesting any of those children would go up to be violent. My boy went through a 'hitting' phase just as almost all the girls we knew did - he is now very gentle, kind, considerate. Honestly he has only ever been hit by older girls, but I wouldn't ever dream to suggest all girls were like that.

What do I think causes adult male violence? In my experience all the young men I know who were violent to young women did themselves grow up in violent households.

OP, it’s the company you keep.

I have 2 DSs and I don’t hang out with people who indulge in ridiculous stereotyping (boisterous boys and well behaved girls).

As you’ve said - not all boys are like that, some girls are.

So - some children are like that, some aren’t. Yours aren’t - partly because or their temperament and partly because of how you’ve brought them up.

If people say oooo yours are easy because they’re girls, Just challenge it. It isn’t true. My boys aren’t expected to behave like hooligans and my niece isn’t expected to be good.

My DS is very active and needs to be out of the house running around twice a day. However he has excellent manners for his age, is kind and thoughtful and by and large does as he is told (he is two so he has his moments). I am a laid back parent in many ways but I will not accept bad manners, unkindness etc and DS knows this. I have never excused bad behaviour by him.

Toddler boys do not have higher testosterone than toddler girls. That's an excellent example of the kind of myth that perpetuates about young children's behaviour.

Really, a huge amount of development has happened from 0 to 2. The foundations have already been laid for behaviour. Research shows that even parents who say they don't treat children differently do actually, from birth. Things like how much risk they allow, different for boys than girls, and so on. This is bound to have an effect!

I hasten to add that I know lots of girls who are also extremely active and need to be out of the house most of the time too!

Maybe it is death by 1000 cuts - if dd1 bumps someone in a playground I'll call out 'look where you're going' but if she was a boy would I just shout 'sorry' to the unfortunate victim? And so the boy learns he's not responsible for his actions?

I've only got dd's so I don't know if I would be different with boys. I guess if they were constantly flying around bumping people you'd lose the will to live telling them to look where they're going but I'd like to think I'd remove them from the playground and find an empty field for them rather than give up!

So my second child is very large, around the highest centiles at 6 mo.

Lots of strangers have cooed over my baby and commented "aw they're gonna be a bruiser"

What sex is my child?

My son is nearly 3 and is very energetic and can be rough/violent with other children occasionally. It’s very difficult to deal with. Sometimes I will see another, generally male, toddler like him and it gives me some comfort.

I tell him off, he ignores me or laughs.
I shout, he laughs or gets worse.
I pick him up and take him home, he hits and kicks me.

My only other option is to smack him. Even when I physically restrain him, I sometimes have to do it hard and I worry that I’m modelling violence.

I am not a bad parent, I try really hard. I’m a feminist and I would never say he’s just a boy or ‘a real boy’.

He’s also very kind, affectionate and clever. I hate threads like this.

Neuro - could be a boy or girl but they're bald so everyone assumes they're a boy regardless of outfit

Probably, but much less difference between males and females, lower levels of violence overall and less extreme violence at the upper end.

In my experience all the young men I know who were violent to young women did themselves grow up in violent households.

So they saw violence was expected and therefore replicated it.

Your ds went through a hitting phase, I’m assuming you taught him not to do it. That it wasn’t acceptable. Which obviously most parents do.

But if we have all children capable of violence and girls and most boys taught that it’s not acceptable, then we are left with a significant proportion of boys who are not taught that, and who grow up into aggressive and dominant men.

All I want is an end to the ‘boys will be boys’ because I think it’s just not true, and is harmful to society.

See what I mean op? We're 'rough' now. Nice upper middle class mumsnetters out in force to tell us we've imagined the sexism we're surrounded by or if not we should avoid the majority of parents we live around!

Langlan.

It's on here as this is the man and boy hating feminist site where you are guaranteed a misandric response.
Do not mention the Myra Hindley or Rose Wests of this world as it would spoil the show.

@Vicky1990 it hardly needs explaining but the extreme and unusual individual women who are violent make the opposite point than the one you're trying to make. There is not an equal likelihood of a boy and a girl turning out to be violent. Boys and men are very significantly more violent than girls/women.

See what I mean op? We're 'rough' now. Nice upper middle class mumsnetters out in force to tell us we've imagined the sexism we're surrounded by or if not we should avoid the majority of parents we live around!

Yep.

Sorry in my other post I d implied that I smack him, I absolutely do not.

Op what do you suggest I do to be a perfect parent like you clearly are?

Touché trilby though I'll add that they've often asked name and also people who know the sex say it too.

Violence and aggression shouldn’t be acceptable from children of either sex. However, children who are naturally very active and physical, or who struggle to process their emotions, should not be demonised.

We’re increasingly sedentary as a society, and we seem to be expecting our children to conform. Please stop equating “boisterous”, “active” and “noisy” with being violent and aggressive. Children should be allowed the opportunity and space to indulge these normal impulses.

But I fucked up the title and brought a load of not-my-mini-Nigels to the board.

Sympathies, OP!