Toby Young on Trans - preference falsification

Freespeecher · 2018-12-01T11:33:32+00:00

A long-winded way to day 'keeping in with the in-crowd but still, not a term I'd come across before. [[https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/why-were-lying-to-ourselves-over-trans-rights/]]

Cuntysnark · 01/12/2018 12:18

I just hope it wakes & shakes more people up.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2018 12:34

I'm not sure it's just that - he also made the important point that if no-one or very few people speak up, it looks like theirs is the minority view which inhibits others speaking up, and feeds into the TRA rhetoric that they have majority support apart from a few hard-line bigots.

In reality every anonymous professionally conducted poll shows that most people don't believe TWAW and that most people are concerned. It's just the silent majority is scared to speak openly.

Feministme · 01/12/2018 12:36

Oh gawd. Now I'm liking an article by Toby Young...

scepticalwoman · 01/12/2018 13:16

Interesting how he highlights that politicians / leaders see the majority of the population as bigots so this will only change if the leaders actually speak out. But they're too frightened of the twitter mob to do so - even as the casualties of people like Karen White start piling up.

They'll only admit to it in private

AncientLights · 01/12/2018 13:31

It's very different in tone to a previous piece of his in the same publication where he had totally failed to grasp the basics of this. Maybe he's been learning in the interim.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/12/2018 13:38

To be fair to him he has often shown that he is not afraid to change his mind (if you are feeling generous). But it does feel odd to agree with him!

welshgendercrit · 01/12/2018 16:28

Oh gawd. Now I'm liking an article by Toby Young

Me too. The issue of transgenderism is leading to some very strange bedfellows. I'm very tempted to take up the Spectator's Christmas subscription offer because of their ongoing coverage of this. Never thought I'd see myself saying that...

NothingOnTellyAgain · 01/12/2018 16:31

toby young is an absolute twat.

just had to get that out of my system!

AspieAndProud · 01/12/2018 16:35

I’m pretty sure almost everyone I work with would be gender critical. I’m also pretty sure none of them would admit it openly. It only needs one person to report you to personnel.

The end goal of totalitarianism is thought control but they’ll settle for silence for now.

It’s an enforced form of ‘fake it till you make it’ but the point is to undermine confidence rather than build it.

RepealTheGRA · 01/12/2018 16:37

Ah Toby Young!

The guy who wrote an article about how he dressed up as a lesbian, to hit on Lesbians!

Materialist · 01/12/2018 21:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hipsterfun · 02/12/2018 01:24

A likeable article by the insufferable Young, you say?

I’m dangerously close to my lifetime limit of liking the output of people whose output I do not like. I can’t risk it.

[backs away slowly]

ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 01:47

The guy who wrote an article about how he dressed up as a lesbian, to hit on Lesbians!

I have managed to be blissfully almost unaware of this person but maybe he understands the problems of self ID and the 'cotton ceiling'?

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 01:58

A likeable article by the insufferable Young, you say?

I know! But Quillette are platforming Julie Bindel and Meghan Murphy.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 02:11

I know! But Quillette are platforming Julie Bindel and Meghan Murphy.

And Debbie Hayton iirc... what's that to do with this? (Sorry, probably me being dense/ignorant)

CuriousaboutSamphire · 02/12/2018 10:44

Sorry... have to come somewhere to scream...

The Goviot is on Andre Marr now, talking as though any other fucker cares what his oh so elegantly cuffed hand signals mean!

Consider this, Michael, no, let me finish, SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP or I'll give a bloody back stop with a cricket bat!

Fucking barrels shite!
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARCGH!

ChristmasWrappingTheWaitresses · 02/12/2018 10:57

The censorship by left wing websites as well on any gender critical comments that are made on trans articles also gives the impression that it is a minority view. People are being tricked into submission.

arranbubonicplague · 02/12/2018 11:05

The censorship by left wing websites as well on any gender critical comments that are made on trans articles also gives the impression that it is a minority view. People are being tricked into submission.

Such a valuable observation because this absence of critical comments reinforces the preference falsification illusion.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 11:07

And Debbie Hayton iirc... what's that to do with this? (Sorry, probably me being dense/ignorant)

Toby Young is an editor.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 11:09

The censorship by left wing websites as well on any gender critical comments that are made on trans articles also gives the impression that it is a minority view. People are being tricked into submission.

Such a valuable observation because this absence of critical comments reinforces the preference falsification illusion.

Agree. That's why the TRAs in their filter bubble can maintain their delusion that everyone agrees with them except a few radical feminists. And it's why many people are scared to speak up.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 11:18

Ah, right, thanks.

arranbubonicplague · 02/12/2018 11:18

That's why the TRAs in their filter bubble can maintain their delusion that everyone agrees with them except a few radical feminists.

I wonder if it extends beyond TRAs? If people on The Guardian and The Times can't see gender critical comments because they're moderated out, it reinforces the bizarre notion that 2nd Wave Feminism is out of date and nobody refers to it any longer.

And, if more and more media outlets start using the linguistic preferences that are compelled (unless you're on Talk Radio with JHB) and it is done without challenge or explanation then it becomes the norm. I'm so accustomed to MN rules that it comes as a shock when I read something that doesn't use them...

UpstartCrow · 02/12/2018 11:28

What Materialist said.
The article isn't that good, the first paragraph calls one lone MP speaking out against a load of twaddle about souls 'a debate', and the last paragraph is untruthful.

The concept of 'preference falsification' is interesting and worth a discussion.

Ereshkigal · 02/12/2018 11:28

I wonder if it extends beyond TRAs? If people on The Guardian and The Times can't see gender critical comments because they're moderated out, it reinforces the bizarre notion that 2nd Wave Feminism is out of date and nobody refers to it any longer.

Yes it definitely does, and it also stops you from being able to point out that it's not a fringe belief, most people don't think males are women.

BeanBagLady · 02/12/2018 11:36

“The issue of transgenderism is leading to some very strange bedfellows. “

But this is exactly what is explained in his article.

The natural ally of the feminist, the liberal, probably lefty, equality minded person is the person with most to lose, reputation-wise, compared to a pithy take no prisoners right winger or libertarian.

There needs to be a linking up of all those who doubt but do not say.

It is no accident that the majority of backbenchers on tne references list are women. We know what happens to women at the hands of TRAs. It is exactly how it works.

If Shahjar Ali can have the courage of his convictions maybe others in other parties can join.

Until then, the only voices we will hear with regularity are the likes of Toby Young.

And surely free debate means free debate for all based on what they say. Not silencing people based on who they are.