Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

I hope that future generations of women can happily pee poo and wash out mooncups in front of a man.

Yeah I think this generations issues with gender neutral toilets will seem as inconceivable to future generations as many other firms of bigotry are to us now.

Ahh, I see you're from the same school of thought as the charmer on Twitter who told a woman her miscarriage was just like any other kind of body evacuation. And why the hell shouldn't men be witness to that in the toilets.

I don’t think humans can change sex. To me, the argument really is the extent to which the rights of those who identify as a different sex should be advanced or protected. This has to be balanced against rights of others. The question was one of whether there is or is likely to be a generational shift in how this is viewed.

My personal opinion on this issue is actually a fairly conservative one and I am quite astounded as to how the movement has made such inroads. But I don’t speak for all people from all generations.

@deepwatersolo just because we disagree doesnt mean you need to make it personal. I hope that discussion is possible without levelling insults. It's doesn't do anyone any credit

TWAW is a polite fiction, which until made real is impossible to comprehend. It’s easy to be all liberal until you have male bodied people claiming to be women swinging their lady dicks around in the women’s changing room.
Reality will kill this I hope.

GreenEggsHamandChips

To paraphrase Jean Hatchet.

Man: You're always banging on about sex segregation in toilets.

Women: I know. Awkward. But you're always drilling holes in toilet walls and fetishising women's biology. Dilemma

It's always funny when incredibly rude people who're openly dismissive of other people's concerns get shirty about people being rude back.

I hope that discussion is possible without levelling insults. It's doesn't do anyone any credit

You just called women who want to maintain sex segregation bigots!

Green you said you looked forward to a future where women wash out their mooncups in front of men. I think it is fair to say Jonathan Yaniv does the same, given his history with tampons. How is it personal to point this parallel out?

GreenEggsHamandChips sounds like they would enjoy everyone living a dystopian Dauntless.

I call out my mum on some of her racist views too. She finds in incredibly rude. Her opinions are a product of, and totally acceptable to, her generation (And 2 world wars on the trot). She's a very good person but a product if her generation.

Today's accepted values may well be tomorrow bigotry. Who knows. A few generations ago we thought being gay was unnatural and evil now we know there's a biological basis and it starts in the womb. Our opinions are based on our understanding, doesn't mean that stays still.

If the government doesn't get a grip on this, then my forecast would be vigilantism returning, because that's what happens when the law ceases to protect or serve justice to people. People just take the law into their own hands.

This became apparent some time ago, and I think it was the point where more transsexuals started to disagree with GRA reform. Because they knew they would be the first targets of the vigilantes, as more 'obvious' trans people. The ones who had caused the problems would just slip back into male clothing and blend in as the men they had always been.

I hear you,Green. All it takes is male kinks being reframed as human rights, and the ability to watch women rinse their mooncups and insert their tampons becomes a human right.
Lest we forget, rape was a very well accepted hobby in the days of the Sabins, as Foucault feminists never tire to point out.

Jonathan Yaniv does the same, given his history with tampons. How is it personal to point this parallel out?

Not coming at it from the same angle, perspective or outcome deepwater

I call out my mum on some of her racist views too. She finds in incredibly rude. Her opinions are a product of, and totally acceptable to, her generation (And 2 world wars on the trot). She's a very good person but a product if her generation.

If some women here who are probably younger than you are also a "product of their generation", what do you think that makes you? Also your mum seems very old given that the First World War ended 100 years ago.

Same outcome for sure. Which is what counts when you judge something. And what would you know of Jonathan‘s motivations, that you can be sure yours are different Green?

Or was there a Third World War I missed?

I think maybe in future generations the furore will have died down a bit, people will (I hope) be able to express themselves how they'd like regardless of their gender, the trend for some people to transition or at least identify as another gender for spurious reasons will have passed and the very small number of genuinely trans people will be well accepted, yes.

Nah @ereshkigal, but it might be on its way

And perhaps when we have a generation of humans unaffected by male violence it will seem bigoted to keep alluding to it as being a thing. But I don't think we are going to achieve that future by removing the ability of victims to name what is happening to them.

I call out my mum on some of her racist views too. She finds in incredibly rude. Her opinions are a product of, and totally acceptable to, her generation (And 2 world wars on the trot). She's a very good person but a product if her generation.

I'm intrigued by this statement. Your mother is old enough to remember two world wars, which makes her over 100 years old. So you are likely to be well over 60. Yet the way you write makes you sound more like a much younger person - talking about young people as though you are one of them.

what do you think that makes you?

Good question. I'm not sure.

Hoping the segregation of woman become less pronounced not more and that the issues that mean this generation feel the need to segregate themselves are not present into the next.

Ereshkigal types faster than me

the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream

One can only hope that critical thinking trumps identity politics but I fear that this will not happen.

I hope that future generations of women can happily pee poo and wash out mooncups in front of a man.

There's a huge difference between 'can' and 'have to' (and stfu if they're not happy about it).