Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

And as for MPs, if male MPs need wives at home to care for the children then equality surely is that female MPs have husbands at home to care for the children?

Isn't that the idea of maternity leave and then, once back at work, you express if you want to continue breastfeeding?

The problem is that men can’t breast feed and at the moment men do not get equal maternity/paternity pay.

In most jobs it’s possible to take a break or adjust your hours but it’s very difficult to do that as an MP. At the moment only 29% of MPs are female.

Re: expressing, you need somewhere to express and a place to store milk.

However, whether or not you feel breastfeeding should be accommodated in parliament, the point is that pregnancy and breastfeeding only affect women, not men.

MrGHardy
"... I experienced in a debate about trans topic with colleagues, including young female ones (mid 20s).

"uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women"

They felt the exact same. "What do I care who does their business next to me", "so what if a man changes in front of me". One even said in response to me questioning about sport "I'm not into sport so I don't really care". "

This says a lot to me of the selfishness of this age. In an effort to appear inclusive and 'woke' other people are excluded. Womem who have been the victims of violence or any women not wishing to change in front of males. Women not wishing to compete against males in sorts are not considered.

The speaker isn't into sport so doesn't care.

This is young people putting themselves at the centre of not just their own universe universe ( understandable and, of course, acceptable) but also putting themselves at the centre of every one else's universe.

I may get slatted for this but traditionally men have been 'better' at putting themselves first than women. This is maybe some small reflection of womem acting more like men!

Which is why I think feminism isn't (or shouldn't be) women acting more like men!

merrymouse

I'm not really understanding the point that you are making.

If long parliamentary hours are only sustainable for male MPs because they have wives at home, then I would imagine that those wives are either SAHM or who work more family friendly hours. They aren't mums at home on maternity leave, unless they are perpetually pregnant/post partum throughout an MPs term of office, so what relevance does paternity leave have to this issue?

Yes, you do need to store expressed milk. That should be provided by the employer.

The problem of maternity leave as an MP is difficult. I would hazard a guess that isn't the only cause of only 29% female MPs though and maybe there are ways to overcome the issues.

Yes, pregnancy and breast feeding affect women. You can try to legislate out any discrimination but the physical practicalities will remain. I honestly don't believe that you can give birth and then just carry on as before. If you don't want your life to change then don't have children and I level that to men as well.

Italiangreyhound

Isn't it equally selfish though for some women to centre themselves, and their wants, ahead of other women, thereby excluding them?

@Rufusthebewilderedreindeer It's chicken shop

Isn't it equally selfish though for some women to centre themselves, and their wants, ahead of other women, thereby excluding them?

No. It's perfectly reasonable for some women to believe that transwomen are men. It's perfectly reasonable to desire privacy and dignity in changing. It's perfectly reasonable and normal and actually law in UK society that male bodied and female bodied people are not required to undress in front of each other.

Which is why it's so ridiculous that this law is being bent to 'unless male bodied people say their male bodies are women's bodies'.

You can believe what you like. Crack on. You're welcome to change and undress with whoever you like. But when you start shaming women for holding their own beliefs instead of conforming to your personal beliefs, and abandoning their boundaries, privacy, dignity, feelings, and co operating in a very deliberate twisting of law to enable male bodied people to get into women's facilities whether or not they're wanted..... no, that's really not ok.

And not really sure why I'm bothering to respond, as if you

a) believe that your belief is the only right belief and no one has the right to hold any other belief but yours

and b) don't believe in the right of women to privacy, dignity, boundaries and choice

Then frankly there's no point in discussing anything about women's rights with you.

I'm not really understanding the point that you are making.

Yes, that is clear.

so what relevance does paternity leave have to this issue?

It is relevant to the partners of female MPs.

You can try to legislate out any discrimination but the physical practicalities will remain.

That would be the point. Women are fundamentally different to men. Women face practical barriers to participating in public life that are not faced by men and will not disappear. How they are dealt with is a matter for a different thread, but in the context of this thread, it is not possible to deal with them at all if sexual differences are not recognised.

Isn't it equally selfish though for some women to centre themselves, and their wants, ahead of other women, thereby excluding them?

Who are the other women in this scenario?

I think if they would have waited another 5 to 10 years, kept lowkey and were slower about spreading the ideology then yes, it could be possible.

The whole thing now will set things back a bit, because they tried to push law changes too quickly, if more of the youngsters of today are in posistions of power it's easy to see it working.

Isn't it equally selfish though for some women to centre themselves, and their wants, ahead of other women, thereby excluding them?

Not sure what you're getting at here, weetabix. That's exactly the point Italian was making.

This says a lot to me of the selfishness of this age. In an effort to appear inclusive and 'woke' other people are excluded.

These young people are excluding lots of women by their selfish desire to include transwomen.

I absolutely support transwomen being included in society just as everyone should be included in society. I just don't think the way to do it is by pretending that TWAW.

As an able bodied person I am included because I can use a bus. I am not excluded because I can't use the wheelchair space on the bus.

It's about making sure that everyone can see over the fence, not trying to stand on somebody else's box.

I'm not talking about trans women at all.

I am talking about some women demanding that facilities are sex segregated and that not even young boys or boys with disabilities can be allowed in, thus excluding any women who are caring for them.

Some of the replies on here are illustrating exactly what a lot of us are saying - that trans isn't the only issue and that many women face problems which are now being over looked by other women hell bent on excluding men at all costs, even if it's other women paying those costs.

And sorry merrymouse I am not seeing how paternity leave is affecting husbands of MPs, any more or less than it affects anyone else.

I am talking about some women demanding that facilities are sex segregated and that not even young boys or boys with disabilities can be allowed in, thus excluding any women who are caring for them.

This, it's not a black and white issue and there really needs to be compromise at some point with it.

If its any help merry i do see the relevance of paternity leave in your posts

I am talking about some women demanding that facilities are sex segregated and that not even young boys or boys with disabilities can be allowed in, thus excluding any women who are caring for them.

Conversely, do men want to have to take young daughters or girls with disabilities they're caring for into the gents? The solution to both sides of this is appropriate provision of facilities focussed on the needs of the child or person with a disability. 'Parent and child' loos, better disabled loos.

I am talking about some women demanding that facilities are sex segregated and that not even young boys or boys with disabilities can be allowed in, thus excluding any women who are caring for them.

Except it is common for pools to have family changing areas and to have rules that allow opposite sex children to accompany their parents in changing rooms. Nobody is proposing legislation to ban mixed sex changing facilities and there are no laws that say that single sex facilities must be made available.

The change is that legislation is being proposed that would mean the end of any single sex facilities.

And sorry merrymouse I am not seeing how paternity leave is affecting husbands of MPs, any more or less than it affects anyone else.

Really?

You said:

if male MPs need wives at home to care for the children then equality surely is that female MPs have husbands at home to care for the children?

At the moment Women are paid at 90% of pay for the first six weeks while men are paid a maximum of £145.18 per week. This makes it more difficult for men to take paternity or shared parental leave.

Thanks rufus!

I see it too, I'm just trying to restrict myself to engaging with one person who I don't believe to be commenting in good faith per day, so will settle for offering to replenish merrymouse's drink as needed this time.

At the moment Women are paid at 90% of pay for the first six weeks while men are paid a maximum of £145.18 per week. This makes it more difficult for men to take paternity or shared parental leave.

Ok. Are you advocating then that women should return to work earlier than six weeks then? Only I don't think that is good for anyone and good luck establishing breast feeding if you go back to work within 6 weeks of giving birth.

AngryAttackKittens

My views are different to yours, doesn't mean that I am not posting in good faith.

am drinking virtual

There's gin or wine available later in the day as needed! Also stroopwaffels, just because I happened to buy some.

Heres the issue.

Many take the view that sex is entirely done to biology and therefore whats between your legs at birth defines your sex.

The TRAs take the view that it is gender that solely defines your sex and since gender is a social construct you are free to choose whatever gender you want.

As to TWAW I can accept that in SOME cases of transsexual people (and a very small minority of "transgender") that there are those who have known since childhood that they identified as a gender different to that assigned at birth. No sexual component whatsoever - classic gender dysphoria. In these situations that transsexual woman can in my view legitimately argue that they are gender female but can never argue they are biologically a woman.

Transsexual women (and I use the narrowest definition to exclude those jumping on the bandwagon for other reasons) are gender female, biologically male who change a male body to a female appearance because they need to due to dysphoria. Its still ultimately a male body.

I have no issue with women and diagnosed, transitioning trans women sharing a space.