Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner writes

[Bittermints]

Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner’s Response to the Unhappiness of Andrea Long Chu

Interesting article from a detransitioner. I skimmed through that Andrea Long Chu article in the NYT the other day and was amazed. This is not normal or healthy behaviour, and it is a sign of how messed up we have become that anyone could think it is and that people feeling like that should be given surgery and hormones on demand.

In the days before I left Trans websites there used to be rules about not advocating or giving info about private supplies of hormones. The assumption was that they would be fake , or manufactured in an old dustbin somewhere.

But desperate people do desperate things . Such bans are very easily got round with a pm.

I'm in despair about where we are now.

Feminist4 was posting some made-up statistics about detransitioning upthread, so I thought I'd post some results of actual studies of detransitioning, gathered by a psychologist specializing in sexuality.

www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html

Detransitioners make up a majority (in some cases, a very sizable majority) in all studies. Even when some of the possible blind spots mentioned by the OP article are addressed, the results still put detransitioners in the majority:

www.sexologytoday.org/2017/12/faulty-statistics-on-how-many-trans.html

Yes, some who choose to transition do remain with their choice, but the majority does choose to detransition. As the author says: "Despite coming from a variety of countries and from a variety of labs, using a variety of methods, all spanning four decades, every single study without exception has come to the identical conclusion."

Just to clarify the above: the studies quoted are focused on those who identified as trans in childhood, not those who first identified as trans in adulthood. The conclusion remains: detransitioning is not an uncommon, "1%" phenomenon but a very common outcome of trans identification that cannot be discounted in considering these matters.

Are we comparing like with like?
Is what is posted above necessarily in conflict with the 1% thingy, if it relates to those who are self-identified in childhood on the one hand, and people being treated at adult ?GICs on the other.

Tavistock always say that the majority who come to them ( ie having already jumped through any hoops put in place by local GPs, Ed Psychs, etc )don't transition.

And the 1% ( which I doubt on principle as how would they know?) is supposed to refer to adults who transition through the GICs.

At least, I think this is where the apparent conflict of figures come from.
I h
ave known quite a few adult transitioners over a wearyingly long life spent trying not to transition, and no-one I have known beyond a" hi there "level has ever re transitioned or talked about it.

Transitioning is very much a one-way street.

Even those who 'just' transition socially will find it very hard to return to their former identity: name and gender change, political and ideological reversal, separating from an extremely tight social group who will have become their 'siblings' and 'family.'

They will have invested an enormous amount of time and energy in creating their new persona and weaving it in to every aspect of their life. Their transition will now be their life.

If you add physical transition on to this, then the journey back to their original identity becomes nigh on impossible.

And yet we are seeing more de-transitioners speaking out. This has got to tell us something very important because it will have been vastly harder to have broken out than it was to join in the first place.

I have so much admiration for those who have done this - and the ones I know about seem hugely self-aware.

When my daughter was signed off for her testosterone - aged 21, and only 10 months after she had first seen the GP with dysphoric symptoms that had started 3 months previously - she was told by her specialist that in many years of clinical practice he only knew of one physically transitioned patient who had changed their mind.

My child was, of course, ecstatic to hear this and took it as more proof she was doing the right thing.

One way street.

One way street.

Yes. There's a reason it's called a pathway.

Iatrogenesis in interventions is another area it's vital we study.

AnchorMum That's shocking.

she was told by her specialist that in many years of clinical practice he only knew of one physically transitioned patient who had changed their mind.

only knew of This is the kind of mind-set that far too many professionals are still bringing to their work. As though they'd never heard of selection bias, or the limitations of anecdotal evidence.

It's so easy to create bandwagons, but when it comes to the caring professions, once people have jumped on that bandwagon, it's very difficult to get them to jump off, because that would be admitting that they haven't done the best possible for their previous patients/clients/students, and may even have damaged them. The social workers who removed those children in Orkney during the satanic worship fiasco still claim that they believe they were right.

The profile of his patients must also have changed over the years.

We know that young lesbian women are turning to trans ideology as a solution to their trauma in numbers never seen before.

How can anyone know for sure that these young women will not come to regret their sterility and mastectomies, the loss of their beautiful female voices, the permanent facial and body hair, and the health risks that are associated with taking wrong sex hormones?

I think we absolutely should include those who transition socially then change their mind in numbers of detransitioners. After all we are expected to accept anyone at any stage of transitioning even if only using a different name as being trans so it has to work both ways. And as the study linked above shows huge numbers will detransition. Hopefully future research will be allowed and show breakdown of detransitioners in terms of what stage of transition they were at ie social/medical/surgical and being clear about which surgery the person has had - there’s a lot of difference between someone who has facial feminisation surgery (which is offered on nhs surprisingly) and those who have had genital surgery / mastectomy etc
It’s essential these numbers are clearly known and presented to everyone being seen at gender identity clinics. Otherwise it can never be considered informed consent which is paramount in medical treatment of any kind

re what anchormum said. Add only add to that that people who decide to de-transition find it easier than that once the " system " has dropped them. If they fail to turn up at an adult GIC, for example, there is a " miss once more and you are out, matey" letter. And they will be. A while ago it was the case that most offered a GIC appointment dropped out along the way.Dropping out of the official "system " is all too easy.

Leaving the circle of friends and fellow travellers on social media and support groups, , though , is different. I think that Anchormum is quite right to emphasise this big problem, and it could have a negative effect on the life of a young person. Even if in the long run it is the right thing.

Kay, bloody edit better.

Re: "Are we comparing like with like?" above:

1. The "1%" idea wasn't an actual statistic; it was just something one poster kept repeating to try to make fact. (The author of the article in the OP tries to make some extrapolations, but I wouldn't put heavy stock in them; her data is from before the recent surge in identification, for one, and counts detransitioners based on whether they've gone through a process that, according to her experiences and conversations with other detransitioners, very few use due to time and expense.)

2. The question being raised was: "Is detransition a common enough phenomenon to matter?" The research available points out across the board that, among children, it certainly is; in fact, it's the outcome that happens the majority of the time. Even if you believe the detransition rate among those who identify as trans as adults is flat-out 0% - which, even given the increase in maturity and one's sense of self that occurs with age, is highly, highly doubtful - you still have to address the clinical consensus that detransition is the most common outcome for children who identify as trans, which alone makes it a legitimate, pertinent topic of discussion.