Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner writes

[Bittermints]

Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner’s Response to the Unhappiness of Andrea Long Chu

Interesting article from a detransitioner. I skimmed through that Andrea Long Chu article in the NYT the other day and was amazed. This is not normal or healthy behaviour, and it is a sign of how messed up we have become that anyone could think it is and that people feeling like that should be given surgery and hormones on demand.

Yeah, "I don't like the look of that researcher" just makes you look paranoid and as if you're worried that you'll only get a result you're happy with if you get to make sure whoever does the research is biased in favor of the outcome you're hoping for.

Precisely, kesstrel. I feel like including a basic intro to research methods class at some point on high school would do the public understanding of and ability to interpret the research that ends up in the public domain a world of good.

I don't read much science against supporting transition, except in infamous bogus websites such as transgendeetrends However,
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

I don't read much science

You could have stopped there, honestly.

Well I for one am completely convinced by Feminist4's subtle and well reasoned arguments! I'm impressed by how nuanced and persuasive they are! I renounce my terfery forthwith!

deepwater solo;
re research; I do try to find areas of agreement, and all that, but your assertion that transgender professionals " do not want research" is a bit strong. I have NEVER heard them, or anyone on what you might call " my side", say or write anything to that end.

And we do discuss de-transitioners, a lot. Hence the things I was able to report above about "de transitioners wot I have known or known of". I'd say that many trans people are more keen to think that people mostly de-transition because of the " attitudes of society" than to accept that people can be just plain conflicted about it all, all their lives. It is hard to accept that one cannot ever get one's ducks in a row. We all like to imagine that we are entirely rational animals.

Feminist4, as I mentioned previously, I had body dysmorphia as a teen that was debilitating, made me depressive and what not. My parents - and doctors - refused to consent to irreversible surgery until I was 18.
I am now glad they did, even though I was mad at them then.

Oh, and did I mention that I spend much of my childhood and twenties ranting about how paternalistic medicine is for not allowing me to get sterilized, knowing for a fact I did not want kids, ever? I was sure I didn‘t want kids well into my thirties. Changed my mind around 37, got pregnant, and that was that.

I did worry I might not be able to get pregnant, having waited so long. But then, at least I had long been an adult making those decisions leading to childlessness, not a child with no grasp of what life would hold.

I think you’ll see it isn’t my science, so best try destroy the science and not me.

meant to add; the recent programme " when mum becomes dad.. etc" fits with what you are saying; like anyone else I sat and watched through my fingers when Felix and some others were on, mentally shouting "don't do it.... wait..... you sound as if you are making a mistake... too soon....."

but your assertion that transgender professionals " do not want research" is a bit strong.

Is that what she said? I thought she said that transgender advocates? Which is a very different thing, IMO. Did I miss something?

Kay the Proof is in the pudding. They don‘t do the detransitioner research themselves, they raise hell when someone else does it. Instead, people like Serrano widely publish it is all a myth, studiously ignoring people with first hand experience. There is a nice youtube video of a deteansitioner ‚in response to Serrano‘ which sums it up, really.

@deepwatersolo my thoughts exactly - but perhaps only the select minority groups can have the attention?

I feel like I need a shower after reading that comment at 8:22:25.

In the last couple of weeks a strong light has been shone on some of the research that is being funded by the Economic and Social Research Council in the UK. Grants of £1m and £750k being given to research into aspects of gender identity, issues affecting people who have transitioned and so on.

Where is the comparable research funding looking at current practice in gender identity clinics? I assume it would come from the Medical Research Council. Has NICE pronounced on standards of care in GIDS? If not, why not? This has the potential to be a very expensive area of medicine. The surgery involved is very complex and much of it will create a need for lifelong aftercare. The drugs bill alone must be significant. At a time when the NHS budget is under appalling pressure, surely a very expensive service in a controversial area should be particularly carefully scrutinised to see if this is something the NHS should be funding? IVF treatment is no longer available in every part of the UK. Mental health services are at breaking point.

What would anybody have to fear from the normal scrutiny that every other service has to face?

No one want to address the fact that the 1% is not an actual detransition rate, it comes from the clinical records of current gender clinic patients. I.e. pretty much by definition transitioning or still transitioned. Google detransition and 0.99% and the original research poster comes up.

And yetafuckingain a thread has been derailed by people who don't want attention on words written that challenge them.

How disrespectful to Carey.

Carey's piece is about detransition, it is about radical queer theory and it is about individual autonomy, despite the possible implications of legitimising behaviour that in some, and with hindsight, is actually self-harming.

Carey's piece challenges the views of GC feminists and genderist religionists in equal measure.

I think it is very telling that only the GC feminists on this thread appear to have read and understood the article and are prepared to discuss it in a positive and productive way, with the others clearly having no idea what it actually says and are simply using it as a vehicle either to splatter irrelevant invective to promote themselves and their own "positioning" within the overall debate.

bittermints; you mentioned that much of the surgery will create a need for lifelong aftercare" ; I'm not sure I know what you mean; m to f seems not to in the vast majority of cases. None of the few people I know well enough to discuss such stuff with need lifelong aftercare. And quite a lot ( including me) do not use any HRT either. **

The surgery, though expensive in a hard pressed NHS, is very routine, and cost @ 9 to 10,000 last time I looked, all in. The surgeons are urologists, essentially, and they have got it down to a routine op.

The very high overall costs that are often quoted include psychiatric input, etc etc. Which the govt is suggesting will not be necessary in the future. Though some of us are doing what we can to prevent "self ID" coming in. So my position is conflicted.

Whether such surgery should be available on the NHS , and will be in the future, is another matter.

**It may be different in f to m cases. Not my area.

I am sorry feminist4 but who are you to say my concern is phoney and not welcome? You have no idea what I do or who crosses my door in my day to day life, or who I support.

You are conflating a sterilised trans person with a rapist, not me. I have not brought rape or bathrooms into it. I am talking about trying to understand gender dysphoria in all its aspects, of which de-transitioning after transition is one. That is the point of the thread.

I have addressed your points about abortion. I could address those about rape, but I need to go to work and it is not relevant. Suffice to say, rape affects transmen too, and there is one thing connecting them to natal women and it is not gender identity. Also natal boys and men suffer sexual abuse too in their own bathroom space. But let’s stick to the point of the thread.

Feminist no, i didn‘t make it up. The point was, it wasn‘t all that sad, just the shitty, shitty teenage years (my seclusion had the benefit of excellent grades, though, I guess. Funny part is I went through with it at 18, only to realize it didn’t make much of a difference. I had projected a lot of stuff, including that some people are just pricks who will use anything to make others feel bad into this one issue. I do think it took some maturity to realize that and not go down the ‚what Body part do I blame next for my feeling that I don‘t fit in‘ route.)

As for the baby, it did work out, so no regrets there. But knowing how very, very strongly I felt about not wanting kids (even hated playing with baby dolls) I am very, very skeptical that a kid can know.

Of course, you can say, well you would have gotten sterilized even at 20, as an adult, which is true. At some point one must allow people to make their own choices, even if they are consequential mistakes. But not as teens.

Katarajean, I don't believe I was addressing you.

Can we please talk about the article and the points Carey actually made and not debase this thread responding to self-promoters and abusive people?

Of course we need to ensure that people aren't going down the wrong path in life. But don't let your own experience damage others.

Holds up a mirror to F4.

Grr, bold don't work. That was a quote then a comment.

Fuxxake.