Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner writes

[Bittermints]

Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner’s Response to the Unhappiness of Andrea Long Chu

Interesting article from a detransitioner. I skimmed through that Andrea Long Chu article in the NYT the other day and was amazed. This is not normal or healthy behaviour, and it is a sign of how messed up we have become that anyone could think it is and that people feeling like that should be given surgery and hormones on demand.

It’s not just about patients making the right decisions. It’s about doctors offering the right choices. There are plenty of doctors who operate outside of the realms of standard practice. Those who they treat call them pioneers. Their colleagues call them dangerous mavericks. I can think of several examples.

In principle agree with Carey. You have to allow adults to make really bad choices.

Yes. She's talking about adults, not children, which is less of a challenge to me personally.

That said, I don't see how want rather than need can apply in the UK context of universal healthcare so I would say Carey's argument here is US-specific.

Also, yes, she's talking about adults. But, since cognitive development is not complete until about age 25, I think the NHS needs to have a very strong conversation about what constitutes an adult in this specific context.

(Also, no dig at you personally - just expressing deep, deep frustration.)

There are plenty of doctors who operate outside of the realms of standard practice.

Which brings us back to the importance of proper research. And of course, sometimes current "standard practice" is either not the most optimal approach, or is positively dangerous. The recommendation to put babies on their stomachs to sleep, for example. That was based on no proper research at all, just myths.

kesstrel - apologies! I missed your post and basically said what you said!

It's people like Feminist4, and others like them, who stop me posting on a thread like this.

I start reading the thread and think yes, I have something to contribute, based on very personal experiences.

And then I read some of the gaslighting comments and don't feel safe to say anything.

There are many women on here who have real life experiences which would help open up the conversation and shed some light on what is happening in the real world.

Just getting through each day is so exhausting and challenging. There is little energy left to have to battle in this space with TRAs who demonstrate no sympathy, empathy or tolerance to any other view than their own.

That said, I don't see how want rather than need can apply in the UK context of universal healthcare so I would say Carey's argument here is US-specific.

But even in the US, unless someone is very wealthy indeed, health care is still provided communally via insurance, and insurance places at least some restrictions on providing people with what they "want" rather than what they "need", generally speaking, or the costs of insurance would be even more prohibitive than they already are.

LangCleg No problem!

AnchorMum

My advice is just to skip past the posts by that sort of person. There is often still plenty to engage with.

That said, I don't see how want rather than need can apply in the UK context of universal healthcare so I would say Carey's argument here is US-specific

Yes, clearly, this only applies for 'out of pocket' treatment. (Personally, I do think that after thorough therapy and after establishing that it is the medically adviced path, SRS should be covered by universal health care.) And, obviously, an argument about age in these matters (25 instead of 18) can be made.And whatever the age that makes most sense to some bio-ethics panel, it should then also apply to things like voluntary sterilization. (Like: age of consent for irreversible, life changing elective procedures or so).

I do think that after thorough therapy and after establishing that it is the medically adviced path, SRS should be covered by universal health care.

Yes, I agree with this too.

Individual stories are interesting, but can’t be used as scientific evidence.

They can as part of academic research - such as that that James Caspian wanted to do before his university shut him down

That was based on no proper research at all, just myths.

Actually, the recommendation of Benjamin Spock, a very famous American paediatrician, played a significant role in this. His book recommended it, then continued to do so despite evidence to the contrary accumulating.

In this scenario however, I’m pretty confident that deciding not to offer the creation of a lifelong wound is something a surgeon will be criticised for in the future.

not something a surgeon will be criticised for I mean.

But even in the US, unless someone is very wealthy indeed, health care is still provided communally via insurance, and insurance places at least some restrictions on providing people with what they "want" rather than what they "need", generally speaking, or the costs of insurance would be even more prohibitive than they already are.

I wonder how this would affect the insurance market? Is cosmetic surgery covered? How are elective procedures approached generally? Would people start looking for no frills type cover, thus raising costs exponentially for patients in this particular group pushing for autonomy?

(I know colleges are including transition in their plans. Which is a concern.)

They can as part of academic research - such as that that James Caspian wanted to do before his university shut him down

Not to mention the wholesale and ignorant dismissal of ethnography as a research method.

Would people start looking for no frills type cover,

My knowledge is limited, but I believe there are all sorts of packages with different levels of cover vs costs.

I have read that the issue of ensuring that costs of transition are regarded as medically justified in the same way as some kinds of psychological treatment, is an important part of the trans debate in the U.S. It's a bit of a dilemma for those who want to claim trans status is not medical problem.

Accounts of individual patients or small clusters of patients - called "Case Histories" - have always been an important part of medical research literature. They occupy a similar niche to what is called "qualitative" research in psychology research. They are used primarily as first step, to generate hypotheses for further testing using "quantitative" methods, and are certainly a valid and important part of research methods.

Talking of doctors who operate outside the system, isn’t it Dr Helen Webberley’s sentencing on Monday?

Can I interject a personal anecdote that may or may not be relevant (feel free to ignore).
I'm an ex anorexic. At the time I believed I was making sane and rational decisions and that everyone was just out to make me fat. I was also an adult so had full responsibility for myself.
I am left with various physical problems directly resulting from my anorexia that I deeply regret
I also regret the lost decade where I was too focused on my ed to grow and develop.
I was well into my 30s before I suddenly realised that actually being "normal" is a good thing. And accepted my body for what it is. I now try to look after it.
The ED was a way out of all sorts of pressures and expectations.
I am now a very non gender conforming presenting SAHM.

I do wonder if some of the trans men will get to their 30s and have a similar epiphany. I really really hope they don't have the sorts of regret I do as you can never get your young body back....

Individual stories are interesting, but can’t be used as scientific evidence.

You don't fucking say.
This applies to you too.

I think it is very different. Gender dysphoria is not a mental health problem in the same way as anorexia. Please don’t try and make assertions about things you don’t know about.

I was speaking about regret.i know about regret...

If gender dysphoria is not a mental health issue in the way that anorexia is (forgive my ignorance, but they both look like body dysmorphic conditions from where I stand - a disconnect between the physical reality of the body versus the mental image / identity), then could you explain what kind of health issue, mental or otherwise it is, please?

feminist 4; I thought the analogy that was made was fair enough to illustrate something important. I didn't read it as an inappropriate assertion. At any rate, I found it thought provoking. Things get easily heated when we are talking about stuff like all this.

ABitCrapper sorry for my insensitive post, I posted having read the last page and hadn't seen your 14.38 post