Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner writes

[Bittermints]

Red Flags and Radicals: A Detransitioner’s Response to the Unhappiness of Andrea Long Chu

Interesting article from a detransitioner. I skimmed through that Andrea Long Chu article in the NYT the other day and was amazed. This is not normal or healthy behaviour, and it is a sign of how messed up we have become that anyone could think it is and that people feeling like that should be given surgery and hormones on demand.

@KayM2 does the inverted penis not need regular dilation indefinitely to prevent closure? And after orchiectomy does the patient not need to take replacement hormones for life?

On this thread, and others on Mumset and elsewhere, we often see the "derail" word used. It is noticeable that the " derailing" posts are often nearer to the subject matter of the original post than some of the post made by regular " bedded in" posters.

It often seems , here and elsewhere, that "derailing" is a charge laid at ideas and arguments that do not fit in with some people's " desired prevailing culture".

Jus' sayin' :-)

Wow, this is like a study on how to gaslight.

Post after post, one person tries desperately to put words in other people's mouths and change the 'history narrative' of the thread.

It's really something to witness as a showcase of tactics. I might get my bingo card out again.

Not a not man;
Fair question;

Dilation, yes, though it is hardly a chore. It fits in at the same level of trouble as things that everyone has to do at some stage, like flossing teeth and so on. Not a medical matter. Some people don't do it anyway. Their choice. If they are not interested in sex, or interested in sex with a man, it is not a priority. Certainly not for me

On your other point; a lot of people with that op and with full GRS do not continue to take hormones after a certain age. I don't , with endo approval. Why take a health risk? The willy does not grow back, nor do the boobs suddenly vanish. Small attempt at humour there.

From the article:

While informed consent clinics are presented as the vanguard of patient autonomy, to get hormones at one you necessarily walk out with fewer rights than you walked in with.

Clever, subtle, and quite probably brutal in its honesty.

Longstanding patterns of identity diffusion, social skill deficits, struggles with emotion regulation, and obsessive-compulsive tendencies tend to be obvious to the people around us, and hard for the individual to recognize. Ideally this is what the therapy room can be: a place where it’s safe for us to see the ways we cause trouble for ourselves.

Direct challenge to the conversion therapy narrative.

Despite the fallout in my own life from the anti-gatekeeping viewpoint, I agree with Ms. Chu’s defense of the informed consent model. Adults have the right to make decisions the people around them would call bad bets. Access to informed consent care should be defended because of the importance of patient autonomy. At the same time actually getting your care through an informed consent clinic is an awful idea.

Direct challenge to GC feminists and particularly so for those of us who are mothers and members of a parenting community whose instinct is to protect.

If I was a Swede in Sweden from 1960 to 2010 I would actually not be counted as a “regretter” because I never changed my documents. I know right around two hundred detransitioners but I only know one who changed her gender legally and then changed it back. In large part detransitioners opt out of name and gender changes because the process is tedious and expensive.

So y'know, if you're going to splatter the board with wank, at least make it topical wank.

Indeed, Lang. As always the wisdom of Bunbury applies - don't feed the seagulls, though they will of course keep trying to steal your chips anyway. When it's as obvious that someone lacks self-awareness as the quote Laundy pulled out makes it there's really no point engaging.

(Others are of course free to make different decisions.)

Oh look! A constructive post about the topic of the thread. However did I manage that? Wonders will never fucking cease.

Carey often says things I don't agree with. I'd love to sit down with her and talk over those disagreements. Note the lack of threats, attempts to make her stop saying things I don't agree with, etc. Female socialization, it definitely has its upsides!

Individual stories are interesting, but can’t be used as scientific evidence.

But on a meta level, Lang, isn't a refusal to do what you're told and take the thread in the direction some people would really like it to go in actually a derailment? You know, in the land where the gaslights shine brightly (with occasional moments of unexpected dimming)?

Maybe we need to have a clip that just plays the movie's soundtrack ready for occasions when it's needed.

Carey often says things I don't agree with. I'd love to sit down with her and talk over those disagreements. Note the lack of threats, attempts to make her stop saying things I don't agree with, etc.

Well, exactly. Also, she is not in the UK with a nationalised health service. So the environment is very different as is the medical culture, in all areas, not just trans-related. First do no harm counts for more here, whether or not that is a good or a bad thing.

And LOL to your other post! Is it like the Narnia street lamp in The Last Battle, do you think?!

Has everyone read her essay about the time she spent working in the bar that was in a men's clothing store aimed at very wealthy men, and run by a total wanker? I think the title was Ice Balls. Definitely worth a read.

Let's just put it this way, if Mr Tumnus turns up I won't be entirely surprised.

Individual stories are interesting, but can’t be used as scientific evidence.

Which is why research into detransition, ROGD and so on is direly needed, no matter how much Julia Serano & Co scream to prevent it.

The thing about Serano's "detransition doesn't exist" claim is that it only takes one case to disprove. So, Julia, meet Carey.

Or, you know, be aware of. I like Carey and would not want to force her to sit down for a pint with someone as irritating as Serano.

Well, feminist4 you made a general comment about phoney and unwelcome concern. Who exactly were you addressing? And why can I not respond as if it were me? Why don’t you engage with the substance of what is being said?

Young women are being failed in many ways and this is a feminist board. One of the ways is that discussion about gender dysphoria and its implications is being shit down. This affects young men too. No-one is saying they are perpetrators.

Gas-lighting and stonewalling is a form of control. I do not believe you are posting in good faith feminist4 and whatever troubles lead you to adopt this approach, I hope they resolve.

I don’t believe many people on this board genuinely have children with gender dysphoria’s best interests at heart. I think they are being used as a weapon in a battle, without much genuine concern for their interests.

I don’t believe many people on this board genuinely have children with gender dysphoria’s best interests at heart. I think they are being used as a weapon in a battle, without much genuine concern for their interests.

Not true. Many on here have underage kids and are scared they will be sucked into this pink brain/blue brain idea and/or limited by it. That transactivists discourage scientifically led discourse and research and try to sneak agendas into school that have the hallmarks of a cult, is not helpful.

Well, I tried to get it back to what Carey said.

I give up. Waste of time. Let's just dance to other people's tunes all day long. That'll be fun.

I don’t believe many people on this board genuinely have children with gender dysphoria’s best interests at heart. I think they are being used as a weapon in a battle, without much genuine concern for their interests.

You can believe what you want. But it's absolute rubbish. You are inventing a false narrative about people's genuine concerns just being a front because you can't conceive of anyone having views that differ from yours and seeing problems that you are clearly incapable of seeing. (And you are the poster who said that a teenage girl uncomfortable about showering in front of a naked male-bodied person would be "transphobic" if I recall.) So this is your issue, not the posters here. Pure projection.

In every major life crossroads, there will be some who find later they took the wrong path. Or regret not taking a path. Men are particularly at risk from suicide in our society anyway so I suppose its not a surprie that young men denied their trans wishes are vulnerable to depression/suicidal thoughts.
For every major medical intervention no matter how vital, there will be those who suffer horrible physical or psychological fall out and come to bitterly regret that they had that done (whatever it is including cosmetic surgery, transition, or life saving ops).
For these reasons , proper research into transitional interventions and creating successful outcomes is a vital area.
My daughter needs back surgery. She is in pain now and they could do it tomorrow, but as it is a properly researched area of medicine, they are going to try and wait to minimize the number of surgeries she will need.
I know this seems a bit deraily, but my point is: if medical interventions and medications are to be given to young people they should be subject to rigorous investigation regarding like long term outcome.

if medical interventions and medications are to be given to young people they should be subject to rigorous investigation regarding like long term outcome

I quite agree.

Refusing to countenance this, actively suppressing thorough research and pushing for the affirmation-only approach where we know there are people detransitioning, as well as those discovering that all is not always roses on the other side, is taking away freedom and informed consent from young people in order to push them down a single medical and ideological pathway. It is wholly unethical.

Adults have the right to make decisions the people around them would call bad bets.

I don't know what the US situation is, regarding younger women obtaining sterilisation operations on request. But we shouldn't forget that here in the UK this is not an option. As long as that is the case, then we have a parallel for restricting access to genital reconstruction surgery for trans people.

I wonder whether over the next 50 years we will see a redefinition of the age at which people are regarded as "full" adults, moving more toward age 25 for certain things, in order to reflect what we now know about brain development. The process of becoming fully adult is much more long drawn out than we used to believe.

I give up. Waste of time. Let's just dance to other people's tunes all day long. That'll be fun.

Touche. In principle agree with Carey. You have to allow adults to make really bad choices. I am just not sure, whether there should be some professionally led self-exploration required or at least strongly encouraged (like 1-2 years of therapy) for stuff like life-changing, irreversible surgery. I'd prefer that to people signing away their rights to sue. (Maybe, if the doc is still convinced it is right but the adult patient is, then signing away the rights and going ahead anyway should be an option?).

I'm also not sure I fully agree with "the importance of patient autonomy" as a principle that should always apply across the board.

There are a lot of circumstances where patients are not actually in an appropriate headspace to be able to be "autonomous" in any real sense. Dementia, mental illness, depression, delusions, fever, exhaustion, medical shock, mental shock, not to mention just being a child or adolescent all seriously impair the ability to make decisions and inform judgments. That doesn't mean patients wishes shouldn't be taken into account, just that they have to be balanced with more objective views in many situations. It's not as straightforward as some people like to think.