Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

And violence is largely a male problem both as victims and aggressors. I don't see any problem with expecting men to step up and do something about it, even if it's just talking about it amongst themselves, or challenging the male stereotypes we all grew up with which can easily tip over into violence.

But this thread is "why don't you identify as a feminist" and when the answers are given, they're picked apart.

What's the point of this thread then?

Sorry- are we not allowed to comment on each other's posts? That really would be a pointless thread!

"It’s not an accusation to say “this is how you come across to me and THAT’S why.”
No-but if you say something like "I'm not a feminist because feminists are man haters" surely it's OK to ask for some examples of man hating?

Well, I gave examples

I guess people don’t like having their thinking challenged. But for society to improve and progress surely it’s essential? We need to be able to pick apart why we hold certain views.

Actually, not certain views - any view we hold should be up for scrutiny.

BertrandRussell

Yes often recipes are just posted mid thread to shut posters up. Same as naming breakfast cereals. And fruits.

Is that engaging in debate? No, it's just closing debate down.

I've just voiced an opinion on another thread and been told to go away and come back when I've read up and educated myself on feminism, as though there is a correct way to do it.

Who died and left them in charge of the definition of feminism and how to do it?

So it’s less of a “we’d like to understand why you don’t think exactly what we think you should think” and more of an opportunity to come and have are silly girly brains tuned up?

This in bucketloads.

Well, sure, but if you come onto a thread discussing a certain viewpoint surely you come on prepared to analyze, discuss, debate. Or is this just a one-way street? In which case, why join the thread at all? I’m not being rude, I just don’t understand.

I know and understand very little about certain things so I might read those threads but not join in. But if I do join in I do so in the knowledge that my views may well be challenged.

if you come onto a thread discussing a certain viewpoint surely you come on prepared to analyze, discuss, debate

I'm very prepared to analyze, discuss and debate. Shutting me down by saying "you're a man" or calling me a handmaiden or listing breakfast cereals isn't doing any of the above is it?

So it would seem it is a one way street only.

We know that the vast majority of men aren't rapists.

However, 98% of serious sex offenders ARE male. We know this. This is what the statistics show. We also know that most people who are raped and sexually assaulted are female. (This doesn't mean that NO female ever sexually assaults or that NO males are ever sexually assaulted - just that it is statistically far less likely).

We don't always know which they are, since serious sex offenders don't always have a neon flashing sign above their heads saying "I am a sex offender."

What would you like women to do with this information and knowledge, much of which, I'm afraid, has been replicated in the real life experience of many women? It isn't man-hating to say this.

Are you saying that we are supposed to ignore it and pretend that, actually, men and women are completely equal on this front and are equally likely to be sex offenders, say? Because I'm sorry, but the facts dispute that.

Different demographics do have different patterns. Male violence IS a problem - it is a problem for men (the most likely group to be violently attacked or murdered by other males) and it is a problem that usually manifests differently for women (e.g. DV, and particularly sexual violence)

Are we not supposed to talk about these things then? Many man in my experience do instinctively understand this and don't see it as man-hating. Although it is also true that many men, especially when it comes to sexual violence, really don't 'get' women's concerns about it - mainly because it simply doesn't happen to them in the same way. They have little experience of it.

"So it’s less of a “we’d like to understand why you don’t think exactly what we think you should think” and more of an opportunity to come and have are silly girly brains tuned up?"
No, not at all. But if you call me a man hater, or any of the other many and various insults thrown at feminists, surely I have the right to say "No, I'm not-why do you think I am?"

I think there is a difference of being aware of it and then demanding that all aspects of society are geared up to this and viewing even 8 year old boys in the ladies changing room, with their mums, as a potential threat.

It's extreme views like that that make me want to turn my back on it all. I am not, and will never be, on board with such preposterous views.

I am not, and will never be, on board with such preposterous views.

What do you mean by "preposterous*?

The 8 year old boys in women's changing rooms is not about them being a "threat", it's about privacy and safeguarding. My council-run gym has notices saying boys over 7 must not be in the women's (and possibly re girls in the men's, but I've never been in there to see) on advice from social services.

See, I think being told a man is a woman is preposterous, by the way.

"I'm very prepared to analyze, discuss and debate. Shutting me down by saying "you're a man" or calling me a handmaiden or listing breakfast cereals isn't doing any of the above is it?"
Has anyone on this thread done any of those things? No, they haven't.

But right back at you Bertrand. Who on this thread has called you a man hater?

BertrandRussell

I have never gone onto a thread and started hurling insults or accusations, yet I've had countless insults thrown at me because I just don't agree.

I then also get PMs from people saying how bad they felt for the treatment that I was getting but they don't feel strong enough to support on the thread because of what has happened to them before. That is just wrong. Women should be encouraged to air their views (so long as they abide by the law obviously). The irony is that I find posters on the FWR board do to me exactly what they accuse men of doing.

Has anyone on this thread done any of those things? No, they haven't.

And that is very selective. You know that we are discussing the board in general.

The 8 year old boys in women's changing rooms is not about them being a "threat", it's about privacy and safeguarding.

Safeguarding in what way?

I guess people don’t like having their thinking challenged

Well, sure, but if you come onto a thread discussing a certain viewpoint surely you come on prepared to analyze, discuss, debate. Or is this just a one-way street? In which case, why join the thread at all? I’m not being rude, I just don’t understand.

These comments should apply to both sides. I'm not particularly seeing that happen.

The suggestion that if one doesn't proclaim oneself as a feminist then one is tacitly supporting the likes of prostitution, pornography and forced marriage is risible.

Linda Sarsour proclaims she is a feminist yet tweeted unspeakable comments about Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the fgm Ali had suffered. Ben Shapiro, about as far from a feminist as one could look for, has posted rational and coherent arguments (without invoking religious justification) against the legalisation of prostitution. The Daily Wire regularly reports on and condemns fgm. Tucker Carlson, (again as far from a feminist as one could look for) has covered fgm on Fox and has been very outspoken on cultural relativists defending it, including so called feminists.

I don't think anyone e has ever said that 8 year old boys in changing rooms are a threat. Nobody sane, anyway. They-well, I, have repeatedly said that girls have a right to privacy and dignity and to not have their male classmates around when they are changing, and that if the parents of boys over 8 are not happy for them to change in the men's changing room, they need to find a solution that does not involve girls having to "budge up" and let boys in. Incidentally, how come "all men are potential rapists" is unacceptable, but "all men are potential paedophiles" is OK?

Not all men are potential paedophiles Bertrand. it's no more acceptable to say that than it is to say they are all rapists.