Women's Hour features interviews with Professor Alex Sharpe and Professor Rosa Freedman as part of 'Sex & Gender' series **Thread title edited at OP's request**

[kesstrel]

The topic is "The law on sex and gender".

Sally Hines congratulated Alex. Are there words other than women, sex, gender etc that TRAs define differently to most uses as I'm wondering about how she's settled on "articulate" and "clearly stated".

Sally Hines
‏*@sally*_hines
Well done @AlexSharpe64 @BBCWomansHour for articulating the utterly sensible argument that cis women have nothing to fear from changes to the GRA. As Alex clearly stated, trans women have always been present in women’s toilets, refugees etc. That’s because trans women are women.

Someone replies asking what a cis woman these are the responses:

Darius Quebec
‏*@ksej*
If you were assigned female at birth and consider yourself a woman, then you are a cis woman hth

Alex Sharpe
‏**@AlexSharpe64**
Yes, cissexual, though not necessarily cisgender.

Anyone any wiser about cissexual?

Gosh Sharpe really was angry and pissed off. Hates the idea that people don't buy it. Sad really. Why do they set themselves up for disappointment like this?

trans women have always been present in women’s toilets

Yes, we know. You don't pass. We've just had enough of tolerating it now.

If I say what I really think about Alex Sharpe it will get me banned.
Suffice to say that I am horrified that Alex is involved in teaching safeguarding Law to students.
Hiding in plain sight, like so many others, their words betray them.

a male voice on the radio telling me what real feminism is

super

and could someone not have passed Alex a hankie?

Since 'cis' refers to both 'cisgendered' (happy to live out your sex stereotype) and 'cissexual' (happy to live with your sexed body), isn't it hugely misleading to say 'cis' without clarification?

Excellent point Likedust.
The term is dissolving into utter uselessness.

Alex Sharpe
‏**@AlexSharpe64**
Yes, cissexual, though not necessarily cisgender.

This is bonkers.... for the last how ever many years TRAs have been explaining/ lecturing / insisting to women (adult human females) why they should be ok with being labelled cisgender and suddenly without notice or acknowledgement of this history, they're not.

They're now cissexual...no doubt any challenge directed to Prof Sharpe risks the accusation of being cissexist?

Was there a meeting when this was decreed? Has Stephen Whittle written a memo, directive etc?

What I am taking from these WH slots is that there are moves to change the narratives to ones that the TRAs think are more defendable amongst the masses. Today's new narrative was the shift from cis gender to cis sexual.

They constantly move the goalposts, but since they are nowhere near the pitch, it does not make any material difference.

This is bonkers.... for the last how ever many years TRAs have been explaining/ lecturing / insisting to women (adult human females) why they should be ok with being labelled cisgender and suddenly without notice or acknowledgement of this history, they're not. ?

My personal impression is that this will only be used as soon as we insist that we are not cis. Then suddenly it will be 'of course you are cissexual, it is well defned clinically, blabla'. Else it will be business as usual, cis this cis that, without any grand reconstruction of their gender church.

I can't understand why they invited Alex on anyway... not when the TRA side sports some genius legal minds like Stephanie "9 irons " Haydon

No wonder Alex was so grumpy at JG's requesting a definition of cis, something you would not think to be an unreasonable request.

Since 'cis' refers to both 'cisgendered' (happy to live out your sex stereotype) and 'cissexual' (happy to live with your sexed body), isn't it hugely misleading to say 'cis' without clarification?

As the key determinant is what a person is happy with, I fear this classification system has limitations. Humans happiness or unhappiness is very difficult to measure & variable.

Perhaps we should revert to well established alternatives which aside from being rooted in material reality are also universally understood?

I thought this was going to be an actual debate. How ridiculous that a professor refused to debate.

Has anyone looked at the timings? It felt like Alex was given much more time - although to be fair a lot of that time was spent failing to define cis and sniffing.

What the flying fuck is cis-sexual? Somebody who is assigned the sex they are actually born?

They have to keep moving the goalposts because as soon as you pin down what they are saying you can punch holes in it.

As the key determinant is what a person is happy with, I fear this classification system has limitations. Humans happiness or unhappiness is very difficult to measure & variable. Perhaps we should revert to well established alternatives which aside from being rooted in material reality are also universally understood?

The obvious answer to that one is the distinction 'dysphoric' vs. 'not dysphoric'. It is nicely clinically defined. But then they can't rant on about cis oppression and cis this and cis that any more. And, they'd have to address that it is a mental health condition after all. Blaming others for one's problems is just so much more fun!

So why on earth did the government carry out a consultation on "how to make it easier for transgender people to change their legal gender on birth certificates", if the meaning of transgender is so vague and meaningless that it includes many of us here?

I suppose cissexual as the opposite of transsexual makes some sense as a definition. If you believe that people that can change sex, which most people don't.

I can't understand why they invited Alex on anyway... not when the TRA side sports some genius legal minds like Stephanie "9 irons " Haydon

I'd like to see them invoke the psychic insights of Layla Moran.

Not read full thread and I could t listen but I must say, clever sandwiching again WH, well done and thank you. Luvs ya Jane

Has anyone looked at the timings? It felt like Alex was given much more time -

More time to peak everyone, plus Rosa was much more direct so I don't really care!

trans women have always been present in women’s toilets

I honestly don't know why they see this as a good point to argue. It really isn't.

Because it's a question of numbers.

The sheer, overwhelming number of people identifying as trans, coupled with the fact that transactivists are threatening and sexist, is making this point one in our favour, not theirs.

It underlines sex segregation, not unisex.

I think most women, certainly on here, fully understand that transactivism has no coherent argument. It's a push for men's sexual rights.

But I am still quite shocked at how even the supposedly brightest amongst advocates come across as menacing, sexist and foolish.

Lang

Trying to get an actual watertight definition of anything from the TRAs is a bit like following the ball under a set of magicians' cups.

If they wholeheartedly, back to front and inside out, believe their own ideology, perhaps they need to provide an 'Ed Stone' style tablet for the general population. And they have to explain it all in a 50 word limit, words of no more than 2 syllables, no slogans allowed.
I'd really love to see that.

Was there a meeting when this was decreed? Has Stephen Whittle written a memo, directive etc?

Heh. Tbh, although it sounds crazy I am beginning to be convinced this is exactly what happens. I saw a spat someone was having with a TRA on another forum a few months back and it was the Words Of Whittle that were being specifically invoked in terms of why this person was arguing in the hardline way they were. They even said "SW says..." like it was the gospel and they were a faithful follower or something. It did strike me as very weird at the time. (Interestingly, this same person started burbling on randomly out of the blue about period poverty even though they are trans. Exactly as per "the strategy" laid out in that meeting. I wondered if they were perhaps a student of SWs. Disciple, more like.)

Alex sounds like an idiot. Another "professor" Still ,they are doing our job for us, no?

Can someone point at / transcribe the "bubonic plague" comment please?

I may have coughed, sniffed or choked on my tea when it was being uttered, I missed it!

With all their talk about trans women have always been present in women’s toilets and cissexual very much sounds like Alex now wants to crawl under the transsexual umbrella, now that the TRA agenda goes bust.