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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I was one of the transactivists on the channel 4 documentary, I regret what I did — this is why

628 replies

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 25/11/2018 09:34

medium.com/@Betsulimo/i-was-one-of-the-transactivists-on-the-channel-4-documentary-i-regret-what-i-did-this-is-why-7e12350ab6d3

Someone who was filmed trying to stop the “we need to talk” session now thinks they were wrong for attempting to shut down debate and realises that they were intimidating women

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Badstyley · 25/11/2018 21:36

I’ve read it through a few times and more red flags pop up each time. After 12 years living with a controlling, abusive man I’m familiar with the script. If I’m wrong however and Ester is genuinely making an effort to change their behaviour then good for them. I’m sure all of us anonymous women on the internet will be only too glad to revise our opinions if Esther proves to be sincere in their intentions. We’re pretty good at reading male behaviour, especially the threatening abusive kind, Ester, so we’ll know if your bullshitting.

LaundryLaundryLaundry · 25/11/2018 21:40

Our plan was to penetrate the event hall and let off a smoke bomb with true revolutionary panache

Here's the thing, Esther. No woman said they intended to penetrate anything, ever.

And if you wanted to perform a truly revolutionary act you could have decided to actually listen to the women in the room, to open yourself to their concerns, to have some empathy. But no, you resorted to a show of physical dominance and instilled fear. How very stunning and brave of you, love. As others have already said, thanks for the apology, but we see you.

We achieved nothing.

Except a humongous own goal. Bravo! All the lols.

sackrifice · 25/11/2018 21:41

But my anger and upset is due to my own experience yet I can’t separate that. WTF is wrong with me. Sorry for jumping on thread.

Nothing is wrong with you. You are on point.

R0wantrees · 25/11/2018 21:48

No woman said they intended to penetrate anything, ever.

Big Brother 'Year of the Woman, India Willoughby:
"I am a real woman, let that penetrate"

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 25/11/2018 21:54

emotion

You are not wrong at all Flowers

R0wantrees · 25/11/2018 21:58

emotion once you recognise and understand it, you can't not see it.

True for many of us.
Take good care of you.
Flowers

LaundryLaundryLaundry · 25/11/2018 22:05

Exactly, Rowan. That's possibly the only other time I've heard it said in that context and it really stands out.

BirdseyeFrozen · 25/11/2018 22:05

"Penetrate". Says it all really.

In all my decades of being a gobby woman activist, I can't ever recall a plan to " penetrate".Hmm

Ereshkigal · 25/11/2018 22:14

This is what Betts is saying on Twitter. Why are kids using this to deal with confusion? No particular idea of what a woman is and yet we all have to shut the fuck up and bow down to confused people. I am so sick of confused people spreading their confusion far and wide.

Yes.

R0wantrees · 25/11/2018 22:17

That's possibly the only other time I've heard it said in that context and it really stands out.

It's worth watching / re-watching as the body language and finger jabbing does rather underline the point.

NotTerfNorCis · 25/11/2018 22:24

India, you are a transwoman. Let that 'penetrate '.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 25/11/2018 22:27

I agree with R0wantrees, we love hard questions here. It's what drew me to feminism actually, the smart women able to debate and discuss is an oasis in the desert.

So, feel free to come here and ask your hard questions any time Esther. Truly. Let's engage.

Be warned, if you come at us with a sob story and expect the mummies to pet you, you will be disappointed. You need to be more self aware than that.

LangCleg · 25/11/2018 22:28

WTF is wrong with me. Sorry for jumping on thread.

Nothing is wrong with you. A trauma response is not something to be ashamed of.

These fools know nothing of being a woman.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/11/2018 22:33

And why shouldn't people like Miranda be allowed to speak, Esther? What gives you the right to decide what can be said and what cannot, or even more narrowly what can be said by transsexuals?

I agree with Lang, this is just arse covering. Esther saw the programme and realized that they were coming across terribly and that it was likely to backfire. But if using your size and strength to intimidate women comes that easily to you, then guess what? That is who you are, no matter how hard you try to deny it. I guess the attempt at self-awareness didn't go that far.

Ereshkigal · 25/11/2018 22:38

So, feel free to come here and ask your hard questions any time Esther. Truly. Let's engage.

YY. Please do.

Almondcandle · 25/11/2018 22:42

Why do people like this need feminists to provide an exit strategy from trans activism, as mentioned upthread?

Why can’t they just slope off into obscurity like other young people who make bad choices have to do?

littlbrowndog · 25/11/2018 22:49

Would be good if we never called it dv or domestic violence
Sounds lik3 someone just kicked the washing machine
It’s male violence on women and girls

And naw that was not an I did wrong
, that was I got caught on telly and was seen to be the male abuser on women that I really am and really thought I got away with cos I could cover it up by pretending to be a protester
Soft targets
Let my rage out on soft targets

AyeRobot · 25/11/2018 22:54

Quite, Almondcandle.

Esthers are not our problem beyond the immediate when doing the terrorising. They just need to stop that. Our problem is those with the power to implement policy who are just not thinking of women & girls. I still cannot believe how much self id has been snuck in the back door with no-one saying "hang on a minute". It actually terrifies me, whilst giving me an understanding of how 1930s Germany happened (not godwin!)

Ereshkigal · 25/11/2018 23:04

still cannot believe how much self id has been snuck in the back door with no-one saying "hang on a minute". It actually terrifies me, whilst giving me an understanding of how 1930s Germany happened (not godwin!)

I agree.

R0wantrees · 25/11/2018 23:08

I've just re-read it and whilst they're not here, I'd like to offer up thanks ,admiration, Wine Gin Cake to Posie Parker, Miranda Yardley, Julie Bindel and Heather Bruskell-Evans.

They're thoroughly decent people.
The author of the article is direspectful to each of them.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 25/11/2018 23:10

A proper attempt at reparation might actually ask questions of other people, to try to gain some understanding, nuance, perspective.

Instead of writing a screed entirely focussed on self and then offering to answer questions to enlighten others.

AyeRobot · 25/11/2018 23:19

The Posie name check really pissed me off. Especially alongside the not really thought about the woman thing. So Esther's pissed off with Posie but doesn't even give her the courtesy of listening to her, because you can't do so without thinking about what is a woman. FFS, she projects the definition on prominent buildings to help you!

Seriously, not wanting to be a man does not make you a woman. How rude to think it does!

Italiangreyhound · 25/11/2018 23:32

I generally try and look for the best in people. It's maybe my female socialization; or the fact I am , what some would call, religious; or maybe because I beyond middle age now! And maybe being older I want to take the long view!

I wonder if Esther posted the comments to simply show a nicer photo, or cool off some negative views.

Ultimately, I see it as a positive move. We need more of it. We need more people from within trans circles to explore their own motivation and what the result of their actions are.

I'm gender critical but I also review my thoughts and I always try and look for the common ground.

I don't wish Esther any ill, but I wasn't on those stairs in fear and I think it will take more than a blog post to show a desire to move forwards.

I hope we can move forwards because there are so many people who could be affected by the medicalislation of kids, and some are not even born yet!

Esther if you read this, keep thinking and ask yourself why so many women are so worried about kids especially! We are often mums, sometimes to trans identifying kids, and we are here to debate because we care, which is not a weakness.

IAmNotInvisible · 25/11/2018 23:56

I don't often post, and I feel very reticent posting now, but reading through this thread I'm finding myself being increasingly alienated as to what sort of feminist I am.

Ester's 20. Been brought up into masculine gender stereotyping, feels it's wrong and is in the process of transitioning. Along the way Ester got caught up in what is often referred to here as a "cult" and went along with and adopted all the terminology that made them believe they belonged in that cult. The militant-trans-club exist in a bubble, filtering out other views, twitter and facebook blocks, suspensions. Universities and other woke organisations go out of their way to demonstrate they are in the right by withdrawing women's spaces and silencing/no-platforming debates.

I find it very sad that trans people truly believe that people like me hate them just because they are trans. The cult ensures that voices like mine don't get through - it hides behind the one thing it will never be able to attain. Transwomen are transwomen. I can live with transwomen as a term. But not women. They will never be women. Different. So long as we won't capitulate to this fantasy, the cult hides behind "no debate" as their focus. That and the false statistics, the violence, and when no actual violence can be evidenced, the literal violence. It's akin to "every time a child says, 'I don't believe in fairies,' there is a fairy somewhere that falls down dead".

Maybe Ester's cult bubble has burst. Maybe not. Only Ester knows whether they are genuine in their contrition or whether it's a stunt.

But I find the taking apart of Ester's choice of language unsettling. I have young grandchildren, and I often find myself having to re-explain language I have used as I realise what I have actually said is not what I meant. I'm learning a great deal, including to moderate what I say especially when my patience is being tested by a two year old who is merely behaving like a two year old.

If we want genuine trans people to believe that we don't hate them and we accept them on our terms, not on their demands, then I think rubbishing Ester's blog is counter-productive. We've always said dialogue is needed and we need the trans community to stand up and be counted and here we have someone who for whatever reason has done so and it gets thrown back in their face. If Ester is genuine they need encouragement or the cult will point the finger back at us and say see ..... we said they hated you just because you're trans.

From many of the comments here I can hear my parents saying to the teenage me "you're a fool, and don't come running back when it all goes wrong", but for the time being, I'm giving Ester the benefit of the doubt but eyeing them with distrust. Trust needs to be earned and in my opinion Ester's blog although far from perfect is a step in the right direction. It's giving me hope that someone is listening and maybe there are others like Ester who haven't yet had the courage to speak up but they're out there and they will, given the chance.

EmotionsDontEngageWithbrain · 26/11/2018 00:06

Thank you so much for replies.

For the 1st time I’m my life feel like social media has broke me, reading fawning over the apology like they some kind of brave soul has awoken skeletons I wished to forget.

I know I projecting my own past but it’s just what my ex done, everyone believe him to fawning of what great guy he was and my punishment for someone witnessing him kicking fuck out the door & me was to discret me for ruining the family reputation even my own family doubted my sainty over time, as did I until I begged him one day to take me to see physiatrist before I quit life, was only listening to his lame excuses to no and fear in his eyes did I start to realise maybe I’m not crazy. He played a good game as I can never know for sure what was my imagination or real as he cut me off from outside world, my sister only witness tip bits. Sorry I off loading, it’s something I’ve never shared with anyone.

I feel disappointed all over again that people I respected are so believing this person, who now being hailed as some hero for speaking up and disappointed bcos my own self projection but I want to shout hello this fool intentions was to throw smoke bombs. They got caught out, their concern was they looked like shit and needed to show scrubbed up version, then came the woes of life hard, the she made me do it, digs at Posie etc, insult names, the half arsed sorry and I’m brave solider pity story for speaking up (that’s just brief version)