I was one of the transactivists on the channel 4 documentary, I regret what I did — this is why

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

medium.com/@Betsulimo/i-was-one-of-the-transactivists-on-the-channel-4-documentary-i-regret-what-i-did-this-is-why-7e12350ab6d3

Someone who was filmed trying to stop the “we need to talk” session now thinks they were wrong for attempting to shut down debate and realises that they were intimidating women

Well said, WeRiseUp.

Being ‘nice’ while someone is attempting to hijack our language, remove our rights, and take our spaces isn’t going to make them stop, or talk, or even really listen.

FloralBunting, LangCleg and others, I have said before, many times, how much I admire your stance and the firm position you and others take.

So please do not see my words as appealing to you for a female socialization.

I feel personally that sometimes the words said by some can create a picture of gender critical women which fails to truly represent what is meant/ what we actually believe.

It is not female capitulation I am suggesting.

Like many here seeing the trans young people's lives and the elements of 'persecution' perceived by them I just feel sometimes we do ourselves a disservice.

I am thinking particularly of young trans men. My heart breaks for these dysphoric young women and girls.

I am happy for any tiny crack in the dome of young trans people's perceptions that feminists are somehow the enemy.

Anyway, my comments are not directed at anyone on this thread. I am speaking in general in support of Esther, in the words of Hot Fuzz - "For the greater good."

Italiangreyhound,

I see what you're saying.

We're standing up on at least two fronts, really

1. Being compassionate to young women who do not want to be women and female because of various reasons why it is shit to be a young woman: e.g. porn that degrades women, sexual harrassment from men, prejudice against females etc.

2: Having to guard against those organisations who seem to be given free range in schools to tell lies to young children - e.g. that little boys are girls if they like pink, and little girls are boys if they like....Lego, maths, dinosaurs etc. Which is mad.

BubonicTheHedgehag I completely agree with you.

This thread is specifically about Esther Betts. Someone said up thread she is no Miranda Yardley. I've not met Esther but, like many here, I have met Miranda. And I agree. Esther is no Miranda.

But what got Miranda to where Miranda is?

This is an opportunity. That is all I am saying and language counts.

And I wonder if we self assign ourselves to maybe some sort of 'good cop bad cop'. And has my female socialization stuck harder then others?

I don't know.

But I don't want to stop anyone else being hard/firm fixed or whatever. Honestly, we need a lot of voices. We don't need to be nice, we may be perceived as nasty, but there are other options. I am often for the third option, the other option. If that makes sense.

Referring negatively to make up or whatever sounds more like the kind of complaints thrown at women by men or by gender confirming women.

That's the main thing I noted here but my references to the way we use language are not necessarily based on this thread.

Anyway night all, you are awesome women, but you already know that.

There is no doubt that feminists, particularly, have a great deal of compassion for the young women caught up in transgenderism. They are true victims of sexism, at the most extreme end - cutting off your breasts to conform to patriarchy.

But this :

This particular trans person has made a few steps towards basic decency by acknowledging that threats, violence and intimidation are a bad thing. This is one heck of a baby step towards 'reconciliation', and I and others remain unconvinced as to why it is incumbent upon women to have compassion on someone who has only recently, reluctantly, and rather half heartedly decided that screaming threats at us in a mask is 'unhelpful'.

I can't help feeling that sometimes women are frightened not to demonstrate appreciation of the smallest chink in the patriarchal armour. Worried that if they don't encourage it, with a carrot, it will close. And retribution will follow.

They may have good reason to think this. But it's worth acknowledging it if that is the case. Because the more we dispense with those feelings, the stronger we become.

Datun, I think you're quite right.

I'm increasingly aware of how my own initial reaction to stuff is to latch on to the glimmer of good behaviour, because my subconscious is telling me it won't stay there if I don't.

When I step back, I realize that if someone has decided violence and intimidation are bad, then it shouldn't matter whether or not I fulsomely praise them for it. If they subsequently continue with the various forms of aggression and say it was because I wasn't nice enough in response to the initial overture, then they clearly were not in earnest to begin with.

This is pretty basic stuff. Look, I don't mind if some of you play this with the welcoming arms reconciliation vibe. I'm not going to tell you not to bother, because I'm not your boss. I'm not saying I don't understand, and at one point, I probably would have done the same.

But from where I am sitting now, I recognize that impulse in myself as essentially conditioning from abusive treatment, and I know full well how dangerous and ultimately pointless it is.

Be kind, be nice, but be aware that you may well be being used, and please don't tell other women they must adopt your approach.

When I step back, I realize that if someone has decided violence and intimidation are bad, then it shouldn't matter whether or not I fulsomely praise them for it. If they subsequently continue with the various forms of aggression and say it was because I wasn't nice enough in response to the initial overture, then they clearly were not in earnest to begin with.

THIS

They either mean it, or they don't.

This is an opportunity. That is all I am saying and language counts.

And I wonder if we self assign ourselves to maybe some sort of 'good cop bad cop'. And has my female socialization stuck harder then others?

I don't know.

But I don't want to stop anyone else being hard/firm fixed or whatever. Honestly, we need a lot of voices. We don't need to be nice, we may be perceived as nasty, but there are other options. I am often for the third option, the other option. If that makes sense.

Its really worth reading the last six pages of a current thread which had raised similar issues.
Eye-opening.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals?pg=12

Be kind, be nice, but be aware that you may well be being used, and please don't tell other women they must adopt your approach.

This.

Its really worth reading the last six pages of a current thread which had raised similar issues. Eye-opening.

As ever, the lesson is - say no, stand back, and see what happens.

It is rarely what you'd like to happen.

I commented previously on this thread that I believe listening to what people actually say and there's more of interest and value in discussing that rather than their perceived virtues and failing.

Yesterday, I read two pieces of important writing which are pertinent to this thread and exemplify the heart of the issue:

Twitter thread by Jammersminde February 2018:
"I often talk about my experiences of Domestic Abuse/Violence, of being in refuge with my child, my sense of safety and security when I try to engage with TRAs. I don’t do it to gain sympathy or to play victim olympics, but it goes directly to why I am so concerned not
only about the proposed changes to the GRA but also increasingly about all the companies and services who are choosing to ignore the sex based rights women have under the EA.

Because of this, I have been accused of using my child to “score points”, being an “abusive mum” bringing my child up to hate and fear men, being transphobic, not giving a damn about abused TW, scare mongering etc etc.

None of which is true.

In return I have repeatedly explained why women and children like us (not only us of course) need guaranteed male free spaces

I have gone into more detail about our trauma, ptsd etc both here and on FB than I really wanted, as I desperately hoped that it would make at least one person understand and see that needing our female only spaces doesn’t come from transphobia. I have made clear that I would always support trans rights but that we have to find a way for it to work for everyone, not just the minority. I have tried to stay calm in the face of pure misogyny, aggression and disregard to OUR rights to feel safe, secure and comfortable.

I have been ridiculed, called names sneered at and told my child should learn to share and get over his transphobia. This has been in response to me explaining how even a male voice would see him shaking and crying with fear when we first arrived in refuge.

Grown men have told me that my then 7 year old traumatised child should get over himself! I have been repeatedly told that a TWs NEED to work in a refuge shouldnt override the residents NEED to keywork with women only and have a women only environment.

I am being told that all the issues there already is in mixed sex services is our problem to deal with and if it means we can’t use them, well I deserve that because I’m a bigot.

I never intended to mention that we were in refuge. It’s a very painful thing to acknowledge to yourself and even harder to speak about, but I made the choice to do so hoping, as I said above, that explaining what the effect of male abuse has on women and children and how self ID and the continuous withdrawal of our sex based needs will have a huge impact. Not just for us, but for all the women and children who for whatever reason need/want to know that there are places which are for females only.

So today someone said that I was lying about it all. Thankfully I didn’t see it, but the person who said it was a TW who referenced an earlier convo where again I had tried so hard to convey my concerns and fears. Being accused of lying about this was probably my last straw. I don’t like the peak trans # as I know amazing TW so I won’t use it, but yes, today is the day where I just can’t try any more.

It took me a long time to admit my concerns about the ever increasing demands coming from the TRAs to myself, even longer to voice them quietly. I came to Twitter in November to reassure myself that it couldn’t be as bad as I imagined and as some people told me, but it’s worse, it’s horrifyingly worse.

The threats of violence, the delight found when someone was physically hurt, seeing DV action groups supporting male on female violence, the hate filled loathing of anyone who asks the slightest question, the refusal to consider women and children in all this.

The posturing, the sneering, the intimidation.

Do you know what it reminds me of? 10 years of hell. 10 years of belittling, gaslighting, humiliation, threats. I won’t give the info on the physical stuff, that’s mine.

Pure male misogyny, violence, hatred of women. And all this from people who say they feel like me...a woman"

twitter.com/JammersMinde/status/966488560374337536

& then this recent article
'Trans women should be allowed in women’s shelters – here’s why'
by ESTHER BETTS
03 DEC 2018
www.thearticle.com/trans-women-should-be-allowed-in-womens-shelters-heres-why/

Thanks for posting both of these R0wan.

I trust people will read and compare, R0. Thank you for this.

I've deliberately quoted JammersMinde comment in full and not Esther Betts'.
I hope that in any comparison of the writings here on FWR, the words and experiences of a woman and mother in need of women's services will be centred.

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Thank you for posting Rowan.
Very interesting reading both and being able to compare. I think this just about sums it up really.

Thanks R0

I am afraid I couldn't get to the end of Esther Betts witterings about something Betts clearly knows nothing about. It is very annoying if you have worked in the women's sector and know just how extremely hightened the sense of danger and the need for stringent boundaries is. It is extremely inappropriate for someone with zero knowledge to act like their opinion on it is worth putting out in that way. It is just like misogynists who find it amusing to 'play devils advocate'.

Message out there to Esther Betts: perhaps stick to talking about things you actually know ie- your personal journey.

I've bee reading the thread R0wantrees posted at 9.38 this morning about the transsexuals' letter in The Times.

It seems quite bizarre to me that males have no compunction to fight for their own spaces and instead feel entitled to barge into everything women fought for, for ourselves. I know I should be used to it by now but a blind spot that size still is hard to really comprehend. It's mind-boggling.

It is very annoying if you have worked in the women's sector

The constant use of the word shelter is a dead giveaway that Esther has absolutely no clue about the UK women's sector. This is a North American umbrella term, taking in homeless shelters, hostels and refuges to which people self-refer. Nothing at all to do with secure UK refuges, which are an entirely different animal.

The constant use of the word shelter is a dead giveaway

Indeed - and the words 'bathrooms' and 'locker rooms' speak volumes when they appear too.

R0wantrees thank you for posting all this. I will take a look. I fear my enthusiasm for progress may have made me read tpo much into things and I may have been a fool.

Italiangreyhound
Not foolish

Thank you. Having a cry! This fucking mess is so heart breaking.

I really do feel for in two by it all. Thank you for being strong and speaking sense. XX

Torn on two...