I was one of the transactivists on the channel 4 documentary, I regret what I did — this is why

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

medium.com/@Betsulimo/i-was-one-of-the-transactivists-on-the-channel-4-documentary-i-regret-what-i-did-this-is-why-7e12350ab6d3

Someone who was filmed trying to stop the “we need to talk” session now thinks they were wrong for attempting to shut down debate and realises that they were intimidating women

I’m really perplexed about the notion on here of a ‘reconciliation’ and the marvellous and brave journey away from extremism that someone has made, and how we must admire them or engage with them, as if one group of us is the IRA and the other is the UDP.

They’re just a bunch of people wanting to deny women single sexual prisons, hospitals, refuges and services.

This isn’t some kind of schism where we are part of some group and we need to welcome them back into the fold. They were never in the fold.

And once this trans thing falls out of favour and all these kids have sued and there’s been an inquiry, the misogynists and abusers will attach themselves to some other ideology and we will be defending women against that instead. It never goes away. It is not some kind of misunderstanding.

So its fantastic that we have cult education freely available in schools and online for vulnerable children

That was sarcasm.

Apologies.

Yes, Almondcandle, yes. You are completely right.

Corrinna makes many important points. She is very reflective & insightful. Also provides an important perspective from being on the inside of the tech world.

Just watched the whole thing R0wantrees. Corinna is being so measured and insightful throughout. It is a long video but very enjoyable.

Its interesting that the person leading a code of conduct for the open source community is trans identified and Corinna had to push so hard to have sex included as a protected characteristic in the CoC, which became a compromised 'sex characteristics' not 'sex'. Also it is fascinating that this political purity in the policies of giants like Google is going to lead (or perhaps is leading) to a brain drain where talented developers aren't being hired because their politics don't fit, so they will naturally head to smaller start ups which will eventually disrupt Google. I hope to fuck they set to work on an alternative social media platform which is future proofed to avoid authoritarianism unlike like the current giants.

It is reason to be optimistic that people are trying to create spaces to have these conversations and have strategies to avoid the usual attacks.

Also it is fascinating that this political purity in the policies of giants like Google is going to lead (or perhaps is leading) to a brain drain where talented developers aren't being hired because their politics don't fit, so they will naturally head to smaller start ups which will eventually disrupt Google.

The giantism phase of tech is long over. The alleged disruption is minuscule compared with the inventions of earlier centuries. The only giantism that has really gone is wealth transfer. And that was a brief moment. Participants in tech are not becoming wealthy in the way a few were 20 years ago, they are simply the grunts in a comfier chair, living in smaller homes than their parents, needing to work longer to pay off the debt to the same banks and having their food brought them on bicycles.

Tech has facilitated money laundering more than anything. Don't be in thrall to these modern day clerks, they are still clerks.

Ereshkigal Thank you for linking to the interview with Esther Betts.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=hDkyg0E6nNQ

Personally, I think Esther came across quite well.

I was a bit cross the interviewer kind of cut into the bit about why Esther chose to speak about the change of heart now as opposed to earlier (months ago).

He kind of let Esther off lightly without allowing the full reason for the apology coming out now (or a few months ago).

I also felt the interviewer missed a key point. Esther said that if there were a pill to make Esther a woman, she would take it. But the question I would like to ask is, if there were a pill that could make you happy being a male, would you take it? That's what interests me.

Esther hits the nail on the head with "...what I consider a woman and what they (gender critical feminists) consider a woman are very different..."

One aspect Esther talks about is being more comfortable now that Esther doesn't need to worry whether other people categorize her as a woman. Not being totally bound up in what others think of you does make it much easier to be able to discuss with others without feeling that people not agreeing with you are attacking you etc, simply because they do not agree with you.

Not finished watching it yet...

Thankyou for your well thought out posts CaptainKirk it's good to know that there are some sensible moderates on here.

Mind you are all recent posts on this thread from GC women? I smell testosterone on a few posters.

Datan I cannot transcribe all of it but I am making comments on it.

The bit at 27 minutes in is pretty interesting where Esther explores the idea that men cannot express many emotions, and prior to that Esther says that there was a pressure to have lots of sex with women and because this was not going on it was difficult. Esther perceived this pressure from women as well as men.

I think this is an interesting element. I think we need to make sure that young people have a genuine freedom to be themselves without expectations. How can we change this in society? As is often commented on here, the idea of specific behaviors for the sexes is getting more and more entrenched.

Esther says that the area she grew up in was very rural, very religious. Esther was an outsider, and very effeminate. In some ways it seems very understandable that Esther has embraced the trans identity. The bit where Esther talks about going up to the person who bullied them, (33 minutes in) and encouraged the bullying as it affirmed her gender identity is very interesting.

The ideas that Esther presents are a sad kind of road map of how we as a society are pushing young people into this idea that there must be something wrong with them if they are not this macho type male or very feminine type of female.

I'd love to hear a female version of this, of what makes trans men feel male, and how they are disassociated from being 'female' because they do not feel feminine.

It just seems very sad that Esther feels being sociable is being female. Because out there are loads of trans boys who probably feel because they are not sociable they are not female.

(I love the fact the presenter called the 'balaclava phase' as the 'baklava phase'!)

Mind you are all recent posts on this thread from GC women? I smell testosterone on a few posters.

Was that me perhaps? I confess I only use an HRT patch intermittently. Does that mean I'm finally being disrobed of the female imperative to bow down?

I didn't ever assume a female gender identity in the first place so I guess I can blame the hormones huh? Quite flattered to see my lack of female submission makes me come across more "male". It's fantastic to be read as fully human finally.

Interesting insight that part of the hook in with the trans activists was a kind of need to belong! Esther said she was very lonely, she was isolated. She started going to the trans activists' meetings and didn't even believe in what they said. But the emphasis was if people did not agree completely with the Trans activists they would be exiled. This makes it sound so much like a religion. If you do not agree we will excommunicate you!

Esther said it feels like society is constantly attacking the trans community, because society may not agree that people who are trans really are the gender of the opposite sex. She called this the 'Fortress mentality'. I found that very interesting. Esther has lost the 'Fortress' mentality. She is trying to reach out. That feels positive for Esther but I think the fact trans people are identifying this moderate approach can only be a good thing.

Anything that wants to step away from the 'Fortress' mentality is a good thing.

Now Esther is on twitter and she has said that she has had positive messages from trans people too on twitter. I do think that there is a chance that Esther could make a difference because she is young. I really hope so.

Esther's 'I want to be a moderate' stance is actually something rare, in the younger generation.

Esther has been on put on t-rf blocker. I do think Esther could make a change as a younger person, talking about trans issues and sometimes these talks will hurt (Esther said) but that there is an element of excitement that going deeper with the issues could be a good thing.

I didn't get any sexualised vibe at all from the interview, I felt Esther found this (being trans) as a better and easier way of fitting into life. I got a definite image of dysphoria, and not AGP at all.

The only bit at the end that was sad and annoying was Esther's comment at the end about things needing to be shut down. Esther mentions about getting violent at the end, as if there is a place for this. The only place for violence is in self defense. Which is, as is often pointed out, why any kind of activism by women might be labeled as literal violence, to give an excuse for the violence given by trans activists.

The interviewer wisely comments on that saying that not being violent would take the wind out of sails.

So Esther has a way to go, to realise that women are fighting for our rights. We are not fighting against trans people. But mostly, positive, I think.

Esther has realised that being untouchable, unquestionable etc is ultimately negative and that it can be toxic.

Unlike Esther, I'm not sure there is much humour in all this. But I do believe, of course, trans people can be loving and caring and part of this is realizing their part in a wider community.

Anyway, that is my take on it.

Yes indeed, the core admission of why Esther is "trans" is the most difficult.

While there are lovely lady brain theories to explore and six sexes, we can continue to avoid the sexuality that Stonewall has categorised trans as.

Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Bubonic I have grown up sons like you claim to have and I can remember what age they were when they started to play with thier willies.

I can't help but find this interviewer misses the chance to ask pertinent fucking questions!

Corinna was asked her stance on pre-adult transition, and she said she started her transition at 17 and felt it was the right choice at the time. If she could send a message back to her teenage self she would counsel herself to try and wait it out. But she would have disregarded the message.

Why didn't the interviewer ask why she would counsel waiting it out?

R0wantrees thanks for the link to the Corinna interview.

I am shocked that Corinna contacted one of the most prominent professionals in the business of transitioning children and offered to work with her and she said that she was only interested in working with children.

40 minutes in.

That is shocking.

But I do not agree it is the parents making decisions about care. I think parents are in a very squeezed position.

It's safe for Corrina to talk.

Corinna has to be honest about the fact that Corinna wants male sexuality to override female rights to sex segregation. Corinna wants male desire to take precedence over female reality.

Bubonicpanic did you listen to the whole interview?

I’m really perplexed about the notion on here of a ‘reconciliation’ and the marvellous and brave journey away from extremism that someone has made, and how we must admire them or engage with them, as if one group of us is the IRA and the other is the UDP.

They’re just a bunch of people wanting to deny women single sexual prisons, hospitals, refuges and services.

I’m assuming that was to my post. I think there’s a big difference between thinking you should be patting them on the back, and thinking you shouldn’t be plain nasty.

By speaking out, Esther will now have been ostracised from the trans rights group and seen as a ‘terf’, then on the GC side she’s seen as a man that’s spent two years watching porn dressed as a clown. Do you think other TRA are likely to follow in this direction seeing the abuse esthers recieved? Or do you think it’s just further ammunition for them to think of GC people as transphobic and narrow minded?

As for the second part. She’s obviously had a tough time, it’s quite a narcissistic approach to assume that the whole transgender movement is solely to steal woman’s spaces. There is much more to it than that, maybe once some people start realising that and stop seeing it as a fetish or men’s movement and both sides respect each other, they can work amicably towards mutually agreeable decisions.
I see some posters are a long way from respect though, and think that the mere fact that someone is a transwoman gives them a free pass to be nasty and spread vitriol.

YY EarlyWalker

Personally, I find it very depressing that women asserting their right to name and define themselves against male colonisers are being told that it's more important to indulge a spoiled, privileged child doing nothing more than finding a niche through which to maximise a platform and gain narcissistic supply.

The bit where Esther talks about going up to the person who bullied them, (33 minutes in) and encouraged the bullying as it affirmed her gender identity is very interesting.

Funnily enough some of this really reminded me of what Boy George said about his outlandish feminine appearance and brazen behaviour when he was young. I can't remember exact quotes but it was along the lines that the more people took the piss out of him as he went about, the more secure he felt in himself- taking the abuse as an affirmation of being different. He obviously didn't view it through a lens of 'gender identity' - but it was about his actual sense of identity.

Perhaps Boy George's psychology isn't so uncommon, but it has been sucked into the trans narrative like just about everything else.

LangCleg I often admire your posts and tour knowledge of these issues.

I really do not think we need to Kow tow to anyone and it's 100% right we assert our opinions as women.

However, I dodn't see Esther as a 'spoiled, privileged child'. I would say a lonely, isolated person who was a bullied child.

Earlywalker I agree that comments about Esther'd appearance are very unhelpful and I think they get us no where. If W/o men are criticized for their looks I feel it is wrong and unfair so I feel it is the same for anyone else.

women

But the question I would like to ask is, if there were a pill that could make you happy being a male, would you take it? That's what interests me.

Very good question. I reckon Betts would be up for answering it of you asked on twitter.

After seeing both interviews I could tell that the interviewer is very conscious of the right wing/religious/neoliberal critics and was choosing words and avenues very carefully - like an animal crossing thin ice - perhaps to limit the degree of abuse himself and his interviewees would get as a result.