I was one of the transactivists on the channel 4 documentary, I regret what I did — this is why

[OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon]

medium.com/@Betsulimo/i-was-one-of-the-transactivists-on-the-channel-4-documentary-i-regret-what-i-did-this-is-why-7e12350ab6d3

Someone who was filmed trying to stop the “we need to talk” session now thinks they were wrong for attempting to shut down debate and realises that they were intimidating women

I agree that comments about Esther's appearance are very unhelpful and I think they get us no where. If W/o men are criticized for their looks I feel it is wrong and unfair so I feel it is the same for anyone else.

It also doesn't sit very well, IMO, with the position that is frequently stated here (which I agree with) that feminists are in favour of men being free to wear makeup and dresses without being sneered at for it.

By speaking out, Esther will now have been ostracised from the trans rights group and seen as a ‘terf’, then on the GC side she’s seen as a man that’s spent two years watching porn dressed as a clown. Do you think other TRA are likely to follow in this direction seeing the abuse esthers recieved? Or do you think it’s just further ammunition for them to think of GC people as transphobic and narrow minded?

If you listen the interview, Esther talks about making new friends, setting up talks with other trans-friends, gaining 500+ twitter followers on first day and been contacted by many people saying they agree etc.

Esther has gained a lot of support since writing the blog. This was a reflection on seeing themself on the Channel 4 documentary and feeling some regret.
As Esther also says in this interview, she only watchd the parts of the documentary that she was in.

I think Esther has quite a lot more reflection to work through. I hope they have space & support to do this.
I don't think becoming a spokesperson or gaining so much attention neccessarily helps reflection, especially when there are clearly vulnerabilities.

I know this thread has got a bit combative, but I think with the videos it is quite a big investment of time. I have spent two and a half hours of my time watching both in full and it is a big ask of people - especially feminists to listen to what three male born people have to say on these matters when women - female born, even 'transmen' aren't getting the platforms.

I did feel through it was worth my while watching them in full - I feel hopeful because they all seem to have positive goals and reasons for the interviews. That doesn't mean centring them or looking to them for cues though.

It is interesting to see people breaking out of the trans huddle of TWAW and finding that are happier and freer for it.

If you listen the interview, Esther talks about making new friends, setting up talks with other trans-friends, gaining 500+ twitter followers on first day

Precisely. Leave Esther to promote Estherself and Esther's putative new ideas wherever Esther likes.

Why it should involve emotional labour, attention or indulgence from women is quite beyond me.

I have spent two and a half hours of my time watching both in full and it is a big ask of people - especially feminists to listen to what three male born people have to say on these matters when women - female born, even 'transmen' aren't getting the platforms.

Precisely. The implication that I should divert from centring women to indulging solipsistic narcissism - and to mention only the privileged get a platform for such - is highly offensive to me.

"This isn’t some kind of schism where we are part of some group and we need to welcome them back into the fold. They were never in the fold".

I agree with this. Esther has had an epiphany of sorts? Great. Take that up with the transgender community, Esther. Educate them, speak up, disagree with them, call out threats of violence. As someone who is biologically male and identifies as transgender, Esther will be listened to by some of them at least.

Meanwhile, women have got enough to be getting on with.

I am quite sceptical about reading any "implications" about how other people should spend their time into anything that's been written here. I could be wrong, but all I've seen in posts here are some women who've watched the videos because they are interested in the highly unusual phenomenon of a former TRA breaking ranks, even if only to a limited degree. And then expressing their own opinions/evaluations of what might motivate that former TRA.

Some people tend to be interested in other people, and their motives for doing things, and don't actually find it y emotionally laborious to do that kind of thinking. It can be interesting from a purely psychological academic point of view, actually. And also, in this case, understanding this person's thought processes might actually be of some assistance in finding ways to persuade other people - cracks in the TRA psychological armour if you like.

Humans differ psychologically in many ways, including in what interests them, and feminists are entitled to differ from one another too. We have different strengths, and sometimes different viewpoints. I don't think people expressing their "take" on a particular individual's psychology amounts to pressuring others to agree with them, or even suggesting they devote any thought to the subject if it doesn't interest them.

lang I agree about what you choose to prioritise. However I don't think watching the videos is indulging solipsistic narcissism.
Corrinna's concern is that the next big shift is the kids who were/are being trans defining what is happening next. Corrinna is a grown up early transitioner and had interesting stuff to share about pretty pervy doctors who seemed to be getting off on forcing changes on teenaged bodied with hormones. I hope that Corrinna might join with detransitioners to hasten the shift.

Also Betts is definitely moving away from solipsistic narcissism - towards critical thinking and accepting others are entitled to have different perceptions of oneself.

I am not advocating how you devote your time, but upon watching it is more about watching people emerge from solipsistic narcissism rather than participating in its indulgence.

watching the videos is indulging solipsistic narcissism

Sorry, I didn't mean people trying to persuade others to watch the videos. I meant women remonstrating with other women because they don't feel obliged to indulge the content.

Thank for clarifying

Perhaps more clear: I'm interested in anything Esther says that supports women (haven't seen anything), uninterested in anything Esther says that supports Esther (have seen a lot) and actively oppose anything Esther says that supports gender identity ideology (another lot). And I certainly don't think Esther's sad feels have anything whatsoever to do with me. I get sad feels about my rights being taken away. I'll be sticking to thinking about that.

WeRiseUp

"I have spent two and a half hours of my time watching both in full and it is a big ask of people - especially feminists to listen to what three male born people have to say on these matters when women - female born, even 'transmen' aren't getting the platforms."

SOOOOOO agree.*

"I did feel through it was worth my while watching them in full..." 100% agree here too. I srated watching Corinn thinking why is this person speaking on this topic but you know Corinn had so much to bring. If we do not listen to other people affected by all this, as well as ourselves we miss out.

I do want to hear much more from trans men too.

I also want to hear more people being interviewed by women.

I do think this is a big part of the battle, young people, young trans people especially natal females, Esther may help in the battle to understand trans more. Esther is not the enemy, Esther did a stupid thing and may well be chasing fame, but I did warm to her quite considerably. I think she gave a lot away.

I also want to hear more people being interviewed by women.

I thought that too. Wouldn't it be great if more skilled female interviewers would also do more video interviews like this? It would be a labour of love though. I thought Stella O'Malley was great at drawing people out and allowing them to say their piece rather than put them on the defensive.

Interesting insight that part of the hook in with the trans activists was a kind of need to belong! Esther said she was very lonely, she was isolated. She started going to the trans activists' meetings and didn't even believe in what they said. But the emphasis was if people did not agree completely with the Trans activists they would be exiled. This makes it sound so much like a religion. If you do not agree we will excommunicate you!

More like a cult in operation. I do agree that young people like Esther are vulnerable to this kind of thinking and ripe to be preyed on.

I also agree with R0wan that

I don't think becoming a spokesperson or gaining so much attention neccessarily helps reflection, especially when there are clearly vulnerabilities.

I don't necessarily share the optimism that Esther is ever going to be an ally to women.

I thought that too. Wouldn't it be great if more skilled female interviewers would also do more video interviews like this?

YY.

I think discussion of what someone actually says rather than assessing their possible virtues or flaws is always more productive.

I think that's why I so appreciate those who have recently transcribed interviews. It's easier to focus on the substance.

Yes.

It is also helpful to have markers on long videos so that particular sections can be referred to.

Good points.

I don't necessarily share the optimism that Esther is ever going to be an ally to women.

Do they need to be?

I mean honestly as long as people are talking and thinking and the public are engaging progress is going to be made.

Does everyone need to take sides and be an 'ally'?

I didn't say they did. I just agree with Lang and several others that Esther IMO is not going to do anything for women and is still very much a TRA, who is getting attention for this. I just think it needs to be borne in mind.

I don't have to like or trust Esther, or indulge Esther. I did find the video interesting in that I felt it explained the process by which a lonely young male person discovered their "gender dysphoria" and became a TRA. Which is why I posted it.

kesstrel "Some people tend to be interested in other people, and their motives for doing things, and don't actually find it y emotionally laborious to do that kind of thinking. It can be interesting from a purely psychological academic point of view, actually. And also, in this case, understanding this person's thought processes might actually be of some assistance in finding ways to persuade other people - cracks in the TRA psychological armour if you like."

Yes so agree.

If this had felt sexualized I would not want to engage but it felt very far from that.

Yes I agree with that too.

I meant women remonstrating with other women because they don't feel obliged to indulge the content

There's a difference between indulging content or not, and armchair diagnosing a transperson on YouTube as having autism, who spends all day watching porn, wearing a clown face, being an indulged spoiled child and a narcissistic, solipsistic TRA which is what has happened on this thread, it's no wonder GC feminists get such a bad name. People who have watched the video and commented here have not invested "emotional labour" they've been curious, and intellectually interested.

I for one have never actually spent over an hour listening to a TRA, all I got from them were (deranged) Tweets on Twitter or (deranged) Facebook comments or (deranged) BTL comments to go by.

Understanding and having empathy with people swept up into the cult-mentality of the trans movement is really really important if you want to convince any one involved to see things differently.

Both videos here bring to light very crucial issues such as the "cult-like" side of things (Esther video) and the transitioning of childen, transwomen in tech, detransitioners, trans regret (Corinna video)
But more crucially their target audience is NOT feminists. It's other trans people. It's trans people themselves reaching out to other trans people (and obviously others curious about the issue). So complaining that it's all male people talking about it is so very petty because they aren't talking about women's issues. They aren't intending to. There are plenty of those videos about (Magdalen Berns, etc etc). But TRAS and transpeople reaching out to other TRAs calling for more civilised conduct and talking about the problems in their own language isn't something to complain about. It's interesting and useful.

I've spent lots of time listening to TRAs. And I don't think Esther is so very different. I guess we can all make up our own minds, can't we?

And yes it is irritating that any male who pipes up with their personal feelings is immediately listened to, while women are not. Esther isn't talking about trans issues in a vacuum, what Esther is discussing involves women's rights. Especially when Esther says that there is still a place for "shutting things down". The Twitter is a little more revealing, too.

And yes it is irritating that any male who pipes up with their personal feelings is immediately listened to, while women are not. Esther isn't talking about trans issues in a vacuum, what Esther is discussing involves women's rights. Especially when Esther says that there is still a place for "shutting things down". The Twitter is a little more revealing, too.

Indeed. Many posts on this thread. Much attention being paid to one male person who has decided being a thug who threatens women defending their rights is less likely to provide a platform than using word salad to pretend that they're not trying to remove women's rights in favour of themselves.

Disapprobation for women who point this out because the male person has sad feels and deserves lots of our attention.

QED