Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

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Apologies if there is already a thread about this. Channel 4, 10.00 tonight. 'Stella O'Malley considers the huge rise in numbers of young people embarking on gender transition, through the prism of the gender identity issues she experienced when she was a child.' According to The Times no TRA groups were prepared to contribute to this . Stella feels this may be because she was a tomboy as a young girl, (even insisting she was a boy until she hit puberty), and is now a confident, mature woman who believes that nowadays she would be pressured to go down the transition route. Sounds like it will be worth watching.

How was it one sided Cathy? None of the interviewees expressed any regret at their decision to transition. Even the detransitioner!

There is no middle ground in this debate because you either agree that men can become women or you don't. Either you agree that any man becomes a woman simply by announcing it, and is now to be treated as a woman in every possible context, or you're a hopeless transphobe.

There is no middle ground with TRAs. It's all or nothing.

Incidentally, KayM2, it's good to have your voice. I hope your presence here was, at least in part, the result of the chat we had when we met while I was leafletting for FPFW.

It's good to see you here. I hope you've forgiven me for my observational lapse. I'm not good at noticing what people are wearing. But you pass very well.
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I think part of it is this is a result of actually aligning yourself with women, trying to fit in, than trying to silence and invade us as the TRAs do.

We need more programmes and an investigation of how trans differs according to the direction you are going in ie Debbie Hayton's journey (middle aged father, transitioning with a well-established family life) is not the same as a middle aged mother transitioning to male...in fact, does this happen? Has it ever happened?

The high prevalence of autism in girls wanting to transition needs investigating.

The possibility that teenagers who want to transition may be lesbian or gay needs looking at.

There was not time to cover everything in one programme, and I thought it did really well in looking at the risks of transitioning medically (and surgically - mastectomy at very young ages) and raising serious concerns. Stella O'M was an empathic and non-judgmental interviewer - ideal for this topic.

Debbie Hayton's wife - OMG. She lives 'hour to hour', I think she said. She is very unhappy. I thought that came across so clearly.

I thought it was balanced!

It had:

*very sympathetic interviews with two young people who were happy about transition and were well enough adjusted in it to be open and honest about the pros and cons

*a sympathetic interview with parents of another young transitioner who were conflicted about whether or not they were doing the right thing but on balance had decided that they were

*one adult who was happier post transition but who acknowledged the effect on family

*one person who had detransitioned but who clearly did not oppose others transitioning

*a therapist who has spent years supporting transition and many transitioners, but is worried that contagion is now occurring

*one interview with someone who entirely opposes child transition

*a few minutes of extremist TRAs making themselves look bad

So, Stella O'Malley only spoke to one person in the whole hour who felt children should not transition at all. One. And that caused this level of meltdown on trans Twitter. Idiots screeching about Nazis and trans people being beheaded left right and centre, FFS. Things that are genuinely figments of disturbed imaginations. Imagine what something actually outright critical would do. Twitter would combust and disappear from the ether altogether.

As I have said earlier, I thought that this programme was well worth watching, and of real value. But, lets not lose sight of the fact that it was not even handed. Bath Spa, for example, has quite a different version of events than that which we heard. Similarly the man who had spent 10 years working in a Gender Clinic... which clinic? where? was it a UK Gender identity clinic? Or was it a private clinic that attempted to " cure" GD? Many unanswered questions, as there always is.

There is always the danger that the narrative is that "there is no such thing", and that if parents and others " stand firm" young people will "get over it". And in many cases they will. The Tavistock Clinic says that most do " step back" and live lives as ( usually ) homosexual men and women.But; who knows how many will be knocking at the doors of the Gender Identity Clinics when they are 30? Or 50? A few? Many?

It is not as simple as both sides like to assume. There seems to be an issue of " contagion" at the moment. Though some transactivists would be angry that I say that. The other conclusion, that gender dissonance is much more common in our society than any of us dreamed of, now THERE is a can of worms.

Oh bullshit, Kay. James Caspian is a trustee of the Beaumont Trust, FFS.

I would say that gender dissonance is phenomenally common. I think that's the point that feminists have been making for years - the amount of people who quite content in the strictures of gender is very small.

The difference between feminists and transactivists is that Transactivists think that if you feel that your 'gender identity' doesn't match your understanding of the appropriate gender rules for your body, that means your body is wrong and you are a candidate to modify your body, whereas feminists think that the idea of gender is the problem and that is what should be challenged and changed.

Exactly, Floral. The idea that a load of feminists might not have dreamed that so many people can have difficulties with gender is just... I don't think I can find the word. I'm slightly bemused, at the very least.

And in many cases they will. The Tavistock Clinic says that most do " step back" and live lives as ( usually ) homosexual men and women.But; who knows how many will be knocking at the doors of the Gender Identity Clinics when they are 30? Or 50? A few? Many?

The evidence suggests that not many females will. If this gender dysphoria is consistent, insistent, persistent and a lifelong thing, we should be seeing lots of older women queuing up for the treatment that was unavailable in their youth. We are not.

Btw Stella (I think the real one) made a quick appearance on the thread in TV addicts, I hope she comes over here.

The other conclusion, that gender dissonance is much more common in our society than any of us dreamed of, now THERE is a can of worms.

What exactly is gender dissonance? Here is something that Debbie Hayton posted on her blog. This bit I think is particularly important.

But I was a male that always struggled with the expectations and restrictions that society placed on me because of my sex. Struggled was an understatement. The incongruence between how I wanted to relate to society and how society insisted on relating to me caused my mental health to collapse. I transitioned to escape. I changed my body and I changed my relationship with society. But I didn’t change my sex.

I just struggle to understand why someone has to change their body in order to relate to society in the way they feel most comfortable. This is a problem with society and the way we treat diversity in people - society appears not to accept diversity, so people have to change so that they can fit in and live the way they want to.

Gender ideology is regressive. We should all be working towards making society more accepting of non-conformity and diversity. Putting people in gender boxes is the opposite of this.

Hi Stella here, I'm thrilled that the film has sparked debate and thanks for the good wishes from those who enjoyed the film. Yes wouldn't it be great if we left gender far behind and focused on being human?

Thank you for making the film, Stellaomalley and welcome to FWR!

Hi Stella, thank you for this film.

I want to add more but mum stuff to do!

Hi Stella, The film was brilliant and you were brilliant too. My biggest concern has always been the kids and you said everything that I would have wanted to say if I had a platform. Well done again and please keep in the spotlight x

My concern too.

May I ask if you had freedom to be who you wanted to be as a child?

I'm a teacher of children with autism and sen. The only child I've come across who is 'trans' just wanted that freedom to be.

They later decided they were happy with their sex (with help).

Many pupils with autism I've taught over the years have a huge reliance on YouTube. YouTube does often worry me.

hi, yes, I had complete freedom to be whoever I wanted to be in my childhood, thankfully. I'm a big fan of Mumsnet but I changed to my real name for this (:

KayM2.

I wouldn't say the conclusion of the programme was that there is much more gender dissonance then previously thought. To my mind there is a very strong social contagion aspect to it. how else would you explain 17 children in one school all coming out as 'trans' at the same time?

The trans 'perspective' has been pushed very hard in recent years and it has now become an 'accepted' way to try to deal with personal angst, sexuality and identity issues.

I'm always hearing TRA's saying things are "not as simple" as people are making out; that it is all"very complex." You're right personal identity and how it forms is often nuanced and complex - for everyone - trans or not; however, one thing is very simple indeed - and that is sex. You are either male or female; man or woman - no matter what you feel in your head.

The issue for many TRA's is that they seem to think that being male or female is somehow restrictive of personal identity. It need not be though - you can perform, express, dress in any way you like - and not have to conform to gender stereotypes unless they feel natural for you.

That was the most important programme on British TV so far on this matter.

The contrast between her objective approach and even handed and genuine empathy over the complex issues involved and the utter twaddle we heard (apart from David Davies) from our 'finest' MPs in the parliamentary debate was genuinely scary.

Such a shame the presenter is not advising the government rather than Stonewall and Mermaids who seem to have hypnotised the government into thinking their mantra is reality.

Also fascinating, as the third transsexual to post here on this programme, to like them be impressed by it. As are other transsexuals I have seen discussing it.

Whereas all the transgender Twitterati seem to have become angry and upset.

They should be upset - but not for themselves and the crimes against their rights - but for the kids who are caught up in their ideological war games they are playing with gender identity but that is potentially creating a horrendous medical scandal that could be the 21st century's thalidomide.

What should be happening now is that someone make the MPs putting together that response to the GRA consultation for next Spring immediately invite the presenter in for discussions and hear what she thinks they should be doing about the GRA and the casual attitude these MPs have to the medical issues surrounding trans matters.

Because I know I would think her views are every bit as important for them to hear as the dogma of Stonewall and Mermaids.

Waves at Stellaomalley

It was such a good film - and could easily be a series. And I'm glad it focused on transmen.

(Seeing proper footage from the Jam Jar in Bristol was astonishing - and in a small way I'm glad that "my pronouns are they, you cunt" has made into national broadcast)

Stella,

You did an amazing job! Very well balanced, and based on personal understanding and compassion.

I''m so pleased that Channel 4 commissioned this programme.

Good post there lass.

Ooooh great!

Did you feel happy like that it was it deeper? Did you feel dysphoric with your body?

Sorry for the questions; I'd just like to know more about your own experiences.

The problem is with any sort of dysphoria is that it is all encompassing at puberty. I had issues with how I looked (if I'm honest, society presented me with blonde tall girls as the thing to aim to be. I started to feel second class as a short brunette as a child. I had extreme issues with the skin on my face, and then how I looked which really affected me throughout puberty.)

Stella, I wrote my post before seeing you had come on this thread. So I wanted to say thank you. I was truly impressed.

You should win awards for that programme as you found exactly the right approach and covered so much in an hour on a subject so easy to make appear imbalanced.

Aside from the good this will hopefully do it was superb TV. Congratulations.

Oh Stella.

You are so brave. You came across as warm genuine and passionate. This is a hugely important documentary I think. I don't know how you had the strength to do it with the levels of toxicity out there. But you did so and

I've sent my comments to channel 4. Xxx